Reptile & Amphibian Forums

About being active in brumtion. The point is, what is the animal doing. I fully understand, that you set them up in what you call and have called brumation. You have done it before, etc.

The point is, sometimes, they just don't do what we think they are suppose to do. Sometimes, they shed, sometimes they feed, sometimes they cycle and develop eggs and sometimes they lay eggs, all in what you call brumation.
The point is, brumation is a manmade term and more, a captive breeder term and even worse, a recipe term for folks with no experience.
The point is, its not really about the snakes. In nature, there are seasons, with two very important seasons, most colubrids in the U.S. use this approach. I feeding season, which is the period when prey is most abundant. Neonates and subadults, utilize this as long as prey is obtainable. Of course, cold, hot, and dry, can limit this. Adult breeders, time reproduction to end at the prime feeding season. Remember, there are lots of variables here. But overall its the TREND.

The reproductive season, is normally at the time of the lowest point of prey availability. In general, late fall, winter and early spring, at the times with limited prey abundance. So snakes and hogs are amoung these snakes, migrate to wintering areas with or to relocate mates, they gather in pairs, groups, dens, etc. Whether its in hill dens, hollow trees, a hole in the ground, they gather to "socialize" choose mates or attend their mate. They stay tight and near where the eggs will be deposited. In the north, there are some days, but few they can surface, in the south, they may surface commonly. This depends on usable conditions. Of course the south and mexico, it does not get cool enough to push the animals down. The non breeders can be active all winter and move and cross roads etc. And yes, we see that.
Early spring some species surface and the males heat up before the females, This is fairly normal. When the females are ready, they cycle, copulate, then deposit eggs, whats important here is, the development of ovum occurs in the winter.
Importantly, warm winters can induce early reproduction(like this year). So while there are real trends, there are also exceptions as well. The above and more is why I am not a fan of those terms like hibernation or brumation. As they are very very loose and can mislead keepers or herpers.
Again, if brumation is a term for lack of activity, you must define what that activity is, because, in reality, Hogs here stay underground until the eggs are laid. That's the trend on average years. They stay down not because of temps, but because its too dry.
Lastly down is a weird term as hogs live in the ground and really only use the surface to move from suitable digging to suitable digging. The vast majority of their lifes and their life events are in the ground. Again, that's with hogs here. Best wishes

Great post Frank,

We (myself included) often forget that the labels we give to describe these states of being (brumation, estivation, etc.) are only for our use and understanding. The snakes don't know them or use them. We should understand that our application of them should only be used to loosely describe a state or condition. In short, just because we say it's so, doesn't make it so.

I was surprised to hear some of the responses to that post. Some were very rigid and defensive of that condition we call brumation. I was equally surprised that the situation was explained away with the notion that it occurred because of a male's presence or the scent of a male. Females don't spontaneously ovulate because of a male in their vicinity. If that were the case, my girls would popping ovulations all year long too, as most are kept in pairs/groups all year. They ovulate once the follicles reach a state of maturity which will support fertilization and shelling. Many females ovulate without ever being with/near a male, producing infertile eggs.

To be continued....

...Anyway, in an incident that goes with the theme of your post, I have a friend in the southern tier of NYS that purchased an old farmhouse with a crumbling foundation, built into a hillside. One winter I came to visit. He showed me his boiler room and told me to look at the walls closely. Upon inspection, the cracks in the walls revealed dozens of eastern milk snakes. Most of the snakes were moving around, albeit slowly. The temps along the wall were in the low forties (as per temp gun) and it appeared from the writhing masses that many of the snakes were courting or copulating. They were doing so in temps that most of us would be hesitant to utilize for brumation for fear that they would be too low. Yet these snakes were active and the females were clearly growing follicles and producing breeding pheromones. At the time I said "But their brumating?!?", however clearly they weren't. It took me a while to figure out that it was my perception of the situation, not the situation itself that was screwed up.

We need to understand that the rules and terms that are developed in this hobby are to help in our understanding of these animals. The fact that they cannot always explain a situation shows us that they should not be taken as gospel, but merely loose guidelines that should be considered fluid and evolving, not written in stone.

Thanks Man,

Geat post.

Will

Wow! A post just for me! Thanks guys!

Dan
Available Hogs

No Dan, no post on these forums are for any one person. In most cases, and maybe yours, the folks that "fight" resist, or fail to have a conversation, are too rigid to try to learn something. In those cases, its for everyone but them.

In any case, I thank you for bringing it up and giving all on here a chance to learn. Thank you.

Hi Dan,

As I re-read my post, I could see where it seemed like I was calling you out specifically. However, it wasn't you I was engaging. In your response, you stated your opinion, which, while not really 100% accurate, did have merit. The folks I was calling out are all of those who could have responded to your post and furthered a valuable thread by countering with points that would have led to a good discussion (which all of these forums sadly lack). I have read what you stated in your response for decades, but hands-on experience has proven that spontaneous ovulation in the presence of a male is not really how it works. Can a male influence a female's cycle, heck yeah. This is where I was hoping it would go, but this forum, like many, has become more of a bum-patting "at-a-boy" type of environment where serious discussion about husbandry doesn't get attention.

I know I am an outsider to this forum, but I have kept hogs in many circumstances for many years, but I get sick of just looking at pics of morphs. I have been down that road with kings, then burms, and balls and it is all the same deal to me: a slightly different paint job on the same awesome, infinitely conversational vehicle. We could discuss its fuel consumption, its speed, or handling, but all anyone wants to talk about is the paint job.

Anyway, I didn't mean to focus on your response to the original post and I'm sorry that it seemed that way.

Will

Will Still, that is one of the best posts I have read in years. Paint jobs dominate the forums (or what is left of them) to an extreme. Lots of fascinating natural history, behavior, ecology never gets much discussion. A discussion on scent glands was started on the kingsnake forum. It made me realize how little (actually nothing) I knew about that topic. At any rate, thanks.

But... my name is in the title... unless there's another Dan?

I don't mind having discussions. I'm just not going to stoop to the level of the local forum bully, and I'm not going to glorify wretched mis-quotations of my comments with an argument. I am far from rigid. Science is in essence the process of disproving theories. A scientist cannot be rigid and do their job correctly. If you would like to have a discussion about this topic, I would be happy to participate, but I suggest you carefully re-read my comments before you jump to conclusions about my personal character.

Feel free to email me your cell phone number to discuss this at length.

Dan Krull
nasicus@hotmail.com
available Hogs

"I don't mind having discussions. I'm just not going to stoop to the level of the local forum bully, and I'm not going to glorify wretched mis-quotations of my comments with an argument. "

Thank you...This is exactly why these forums are dead and very few knowledgable breeders will participate. It's only the sites that allow mindless attacks and vendettas to dominate the discussions that are flurishing. I call them the Honey Boo Boo sites or The Kardashian klans and I NEVER post on them.

First off, we do not know eachother, not in the least. All there is, is what's written. Period.
That said, every post, every reply is intrepided by one person. Yet, its a public forum for many to read. Each one of us can find something in every friggin post that insults us, or CAN be taken in a negative way. I question that, why do you do that?
Science is to question and that includes questioning You the reader or poster. If you read a post and it includes real data, opinions, reports, and may include something that be twisted and turned to offend you. And if you dwell on the small area of possible offense, that sir is very telling about where your coming from and what your priorities are. Are you interested in the subject, the animals, or are you interested in your social standing. Personally, I do find that interesting and on occasion I do test for that.
You bring up science, and state science is to question and that is right. But to question is about eliminating clutter, and all the personal junk and slights and horse crapola, is only clutter. To be scientific, is more then to question, its to ask important questions, Then even more important questions, In a sense, its not about knowing, or right and wrong. it is all about important questions. Think about this, science is not about results as right or wrong, but about an evolution of questions. That line of questioning is to narrow the variables and clean out clutter. You sir, dwell on clutter. You sir about not being scientific, You sir, dwell on the unimportant, out of context, THE CLUTTER. part 1
Dan I have never called you names, or intentionally insulted you, Nor did Will. Yet, you sir have no problem calling me or others names. Sir, that is not scientific, not in the least.
Sir, you seem to want to rationalize what science is, but fail to apply it. Yes, science is to question, to be pragmatic.

part 2. Somehow the first paragraph ended up at the bottom. Sorry for that.

About equality. Please think and question this. Dan, there is no way on earth for us to be equals, so you should not expect that, or expect me to ACT like your equal. Simply put, I have worked on one specie in nature, for longer then you have been alive(most likely very true) and one species in captivity for longer then you have been alive. To expect us to be or act like equals is foolish and of no benefit.
If you stay doing this for another thirty years or more, just like your doing now, do you think you will continue to learn? or do you think your at the end of the learning curve? If you have any intelligence at all, you should realize that you will learn in a Exponential way. So what do you expect of me? Are you thinking that I learned nothing by keeping and breeding all manner of reptiles and studying them in the field, all over the world, for the last 50 some odd years amounts to nothing. I should be offended.(but I am not)
Yes, there are folks in every walk of like that seek a perception. that is, they want to appear like something, while not necessarily being that something. Which are you, your still young enough to be something, get rid of the clutter and do it.
Lastly, on these forums, there is a tested tried and true method of getting rid of pests. And its scientific. Question them, on the subject of snakes, I welcome your questions. Rest assured, my replies will be mine, not academic, others, etc. my own answers based on actual results, gained from decades of real life results. Of course, they do not HAVE to be right, in fact, I cannot say they are, as I am still learning. What say you? Best wishes

Sorry, I'm NOT taking sides.

Best wishes guys.