Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The problem is human behavior(Psychology and ethology) Discern is not defending what he does, as he has not mentioned that at all.
He clearly is attempting to discredit you and I. He simply does not want anyone to be considered Above or better. If we show weakness, he will feel a lot better. So I will say this.
Discern, I learned over the last fifty years of keeping, and much of it was based on making husbandry errors, That is, reacting to a problem, is how I/we learned. I am pretty sure, I have made all the mistakes other people make and more. But I learned over time, a long time. Many animals suffered
When I was young, there were no successful breeders, there was no way to learn from others. That is important.
If you remember, after about the first month here on this forum. I saw people making husbandry mistakes. That is, having husbandry problems, that were understood and cured, 40 years ago. Again, many animals are suffering. So whether Gregg or I make assumptions, or slight inaccuracies, that is not the question. The real question is, Why do you want more and more snakes to suffer? I really do not mind being corrected, but I do wish it was TO THE BENEFIT of the animals and not to support human ego. end part 1

To have an apparently healthy snake die is not scientific, healthy individuals do not die, something fails and that failure causes death. By definition, death is not healthy. In most cases, what causes that type of death to occur is organ failure. With the most common being liver and kidneys. those two can cause the death of apparently healthy individuals. As opposed to individuals withering away.
Kidney failure usually is attributed to dehydration(chronic or extreme)
Liver failure can be attributed to improper metabolism.(improper temps) usually undermetabolized. An inability to process energy(fat)

Now we are getting into areas of extreme importance. As this evolves mice as a diet.

I can go on and on explaining this and how it works, but your going to have to ask, if your interested. End part 2

In nature there are many types of feeding patterns, but we will narrow that down to whats important here. sustenance feeding, with evolves daily feeding of nutritionally poor food items. To sustain the animal day to day. And Binge feeding, which is consuming large amounts of energy in a short time(one feeding) Small lizards are normally sustenance feeders, feeding daily during their active periods.
Most snakes are binge feeders, consuming large items and with less frequency. Binge feeders are designed to conserve energy and utilize it over long periods(store fat)
Energy is utilized in very important ways, 1. growth, this is by far the test of energy in a diet. 2. reproduction. After those two, there is a huge gap in energy used. Snakes are energy specialists, which means, they constantly attempt to conserve energy at all times. which means they raise and lower their metabolism. They raise it to achieve tasks, and lower it to conserve any remaining energy. This is routine. So what about mice as a captive food?

Captive rodents are a high energy prey item, which means, its a very good food item. But and its a huge but, If your going to feed snakes high energy items, then you must provide the ability to utilize that amount of energy. Which means the keeper must also support higher temp ranges to utilize that amount of energy.
The problem occurs when animals consume high amounts of energy and are not allowed to utilize that energy(to low of temps) In those cases, energy is stored as fat. Again, its not A or Z, it can be just unsightly or it can be harmful. At the lower levels of metabolism, snakes lose the ability to properly store energy and start to place fat in the organs. Snakes place fat in two main areas, externally and internal fat bodies. both are normal with internal fat bodies being the primary storage area. After those cannot store any more energy, fat remains in the blood and is puts extreme stress on the kidneys and then the liver.

So, if your feeding high amounts, then they must be supported with the ability to utilize those amounts. A temp range with higher temps. like 95F or above. I have posted pics if hogs with temps as high as 106F So that 95F is well within their range.

So you have a choice, if your going to use middle to low temps. Then feed low energy foods, or do not feed often. And yes, this is common sense, but apparently not many use common sense. See I ended with a jab. Your right, I am a bad bad guy. an Old bad arse, how good is that!

This raises a question that I see on hognose care sheets. Every time I read about fatty liver disease it is always described as "unconfirmed." From reading the part 3 section on your 4 part post here, could lower temperatures attribute to the cause of the "fatty liver disease" because of as you said, improperly used energy being stored as excess fat around the organs? This idea, being applied around the iffy topic of fatty liver disease, is intriguing to me and if it is indeed the cause, care-sheet authors should update or re-write care sheets to include this information.

Thanks for any input, advice and experience that you can contribute to this