Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Much of my life has been spend breeding or attempting to breed reptile species that have never or rarely been bred in captivity.
I have been very successful. In an interview, I was asked what my approach was, I answered, I treat the animals as if they are insane.
Insane, is acting or behaving out of character, non normal, deleteriously, different then normal, etc.
The reality is, captive hatched also behave in this way. Even captive hatched, behavior in ways that are insane.
Such behaviors as nose rubbing, constant crawling, sitting in one place for extended periods, eating eachother, eating their young and eggs, eating themselves, not eating, unsocial, not growing, and so much more.
The reasons for being insane are easy to understand. First and foremost, we keep them in ways completely foreign to them, in both behavioral and physical ways. Take extreme recipe keeping, there may be nothing, completely nothing normal to them. No materials, nothing that they can recognize. And raised in a way completely foreign to their social development. Temps and humidity that are middle of the road to what they normally utilize, etc. So why would we expect anything other then insanity? end pt 1

So the interviewer asked, so what do you do to change this. I responded, Find out what is normal to them. Form a model of what is normal and what I should expect as normal. Then chance captive conditions until some of what is normal is expressed. It turns out, its not hard. It turns out we only have to open little doorways to allow the animals to go thru. The Key is, we need a model. The truth is, finding a model of what is normal was and is extremely difficult.
Most models keepers use now, are sadly based on INSANE conditions. Passed on from keeper to keeper, insane upon insane(to the animals) And are excepted based on results. 1. the animal is alive and possibly 2. they reproduced to some degree. While these reasons are valid. It brings up a paradigm that's prevalent. One where reproduction is the top level of success. The reality is, reproduction is the minimum level of success and anything less is death an extinction. Reproduction is minimum, not the maximum level of success. This drives different levels of husbandry that express different levels of success. pt 2

Its sad that I have spend 90% of the post explaining what should not need explaining. Keeping is not A or Z. Its all manner of levels based on what the keeper wants. Recipe or shoebox keeping was a method designed for commercial breeders such as Gourmet Rodent, or Reptile industries. Where they hire folks to maintain the production of tens of thousands of units. For the least cost and the most profit. Call that A. or keeping a few animals in the best possible way, Call that Z. The reality is, there is 24 levels in the middle all valid and that have reason. Back to insanity, its sort of "insane" for a private keeper that has very few animals, to keep them the A method. The commercial approach. Yet this is commonplace.
Back to the animals, so much of what we see in captivity is out of order insane behavior. Our task is to bring that back into some degree of a functioning order. End part 3

One of the most common arguments is, We cannot give them everything natural. An A or Z argumentative and insane(hahahahaha)
lets look at that. A high percentage of their behavior and adaption in nature is based on;
1. predator avoidance. hmmmmmmm We keep predators out of our cages, no need to worry about this.
2. avoiding adverse conditions such as floods, fire, drought, etc. Hmmmmmmmmmm does not apply in cages, normally.
3. acquisition of prey, again much of their behavior and adaption is based on this, we feed them, no worries here.
What the heck is left? oh, social and reproduction behavior and selection. Guezzzz it's what, 10% of total behavior. This should be easy. All we need to think about is this. Oh and maybe habitat type and materials. That adds to the fun.
So what can we do in our cages to help with how they go about selecting mates and laying eggs, How do they do this in a sane manner, instead of an insane manner? So kings occur in colonies and do not eat members of their own colony. Kings pair up and lay eggs, they do not eat their own eggs. That is a simple model. When a snake eats its mate, its acting in an insane manner. Its not because its a king. When they attempt to eat themselves or parts of the cage, or you for that matter, its insane. Our task is easy, return some manner of sanity to them, if we want to. And no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Yet insane arguments occur. Most are about keepers not wanting to appear less then or different, or some other BEHAVORIAL abnormality, not anything to do with snakes. Which really gets in the way, when discussing snakes. And is, insane, if you want to learn about snakes. Discussion anyone?

Hey Frank. Long time, no see. Haven't looked at this site for a long time, good to see you are still out there trying to make sense of it all. I'm looking for current literature on the L. mexicana group and was hoping I may stumble across a few references here.

Be well.

when housing kings together, do you limit it to a pair or trio? Have you ever tried, say, 3.8 in a large container (300gal metal stock tank with a plastic lid perhaps).

besides keeping kings in groups and providing large containers to properly burrow in for nesting, have you tried anything else to bring their captive lives into a more natural/ less insane state? I ask, because i've thought about the temps that I keep my snakes and feel that it's obvious keeping my kings, hogs, corns and most milks at low 70s on the cool end and a warm spot of around 90 and keeping my boas with a cool end of 75 and a hot spot of 95 is far from normal or what they would see in the wild. Same goes with brumating... no wild honduran sees 55 degrees for 3 months straight.

So why do we not at least attempt to mimic natural temps in captivity? Is it to keep them eating more frequently, growing faster, and reproducing more quickly? Or to make things easier on the keeper.

even providing a thermal gradient to the snake 24/7/365 isn't really natural... some days they are just going to be cold in the wild, yet people act as though cold temps for a captive snake means respitory infection, vet visits, and death. why is that?

Hi Aaron, Hmmmmmmm Don't drive yourself crazy. You seem to want to make cases for this and that. Northern limits, southern limits etc.
First, the tropics and that is where the most species come from can and does get cool to COLD. hahahahha at least for me. Once I was in the Kimberly in northwest Australia and it friggin froze. The next day I watched Kimberly rock monitors.
Jungles, rainforest etc all get into the low 60's at least the places I have been and that's pretty extensive.

Lets see, I have seen five species of python cross the road from the mid fifties, to low sixties. Guess they are not hibernating, many types of boas the same, in fact, cooler temps seems to be their liking. A rosie crawling at 45F, rubber boas, forget about it. Boa constrictors, 60's no problem, and both banana boas and tree boas in the sixties. These are active temps.

I think you use a decent temp range. It you give them the choices they need and how they need them, you and your snakes will be in great shape. pt1

Please think about this, in nature they are not handcuffed or duct taped to eachother. Pairs or trios, can see seen sitting together at times, near each other at other times, or completely separate at still other times. When apart they can still be in touch by scent trails. They seem to know where there mate is. Also some species stay in tight groups, others not so tight. Even within the same species or area. Take pyros they occur near me. They can be found up to 8 or 9 thousand feet maybe higher. In the exact same mountain range, they are also found at 4200 feet in grasslands. Same species, within a couple miles in the same range and totally different set of environmental conditions and behavior.
I mention A or Z, well that's what your doing, only the other way. You can't be that exacting, wait, you can be, IF YOU WANT. Or not. What I hope people realize is, that keeping with no choices is not how they live. Live being the key word. Being alive and living are two different things. In captivity, give them as much of a life as we as individuals can, not take everything they do away from them(because we can) Then say, I love this or that species. About several males, can be done, what after a while its too much fun to bare. hahahahahahaha With varanids, males bond like crazy, become best friends, or if they do not know the other male, kill it dead and in a hurry. In my field work, we find males sitting with eachother all the time, commonly and no fighting what so ever.

Thats a really interesting point about the cooler temps. When I first got into the hobby, I was led to believe snakes needed high temps or they would get respiratory infections, and could die. I quickly realized this was not true. In fact, my first learning curve was my snakes usually prefer cooler temps. And when I got into tropical snakes, it was the same thing.(they love the OPTION of heat) Here in Ontario, snakes are most active anything between 0 degrees and 15 degrees(I have found eastern garters out in November, with snow on the ground.) Anything over that, they are very very hard to find.

Thats a really interesting point about the cooler temps. When I first got into the hobby, I was led to believe snakes needed high temps or they would get respiratory infections,

You and the rest of us thought the same thing.

Not only does my snake room get very cold during winter and I leave the heat tape on.. but during summer I have two air conditioning unites installed to blow cold air all summer.

When I started cooling my snake rooms in the summer, the snakes still choose to sit on the cold end..

And again, it is easier on the keeper (me) as the smell and decomposition of things tend to be at a minimum compared to a room kept at 85F. Also it is nice and cool environment for me to work in.

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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

I always keep a window open until it gets warm, and then I use an air conditioner too. They are positively miserable if they can't get to a cooler spot, my boas are the same. And i have yet to have any respiratory infections! haha

Good on you.. That is smart.

The thing what I wish everybody saw is these better methods are better for the snake AND THE KEEPER!

1)Bonded communities takes the guess work out of which animals to breed when.

2) no chance of cannibalism while introducing a male to a "unkown" females cage during breeding season.

3) get more clutches from bonded groups because the snake knows when to breed rather than us thinking when the female is ready. I
I get clutches year round.

4) they brumate themselves (no forced brumation), ha ha! Who would have guessed the snakes are capable to choose when given choices ..DUh!

5) communual nesting sites (that are reusable!) and take up an entire cage unit.

5) leave the shed in their respective cages so they recognize their scents as their own place and feel more stress free.[stop throwing away all the sheds! = less work for the keeper again!]

AHHGGHH! I could go on and on with this list and it would be a mile long..that makes so much sense for the keeping of these snakes and how much easier it is for the keeper and taking the guess workwork out of the mix.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"