Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hows that female king doing, sorry got all caught up in those other threads.
Is she feeding still and do you have any questions. Again sorry

Hey FR thanks for the message, she is doing good as far as exhibiting her normal behavior and feeding good. The eggs have all moved to the base of her tail, and I am keeping an eye on her. She has been moving around alot, so I have given her a few dark nest boxes to hide if she ends up getting them out. It does worry me a little that they have dropped so much but not been pushed out yet....what do you think?

It could be normal double clutching, which is what I hope it is. Or. If its stuck eggs. I hope they work out or are absorbed, both of which is possible.
If you see her pushing as if shes attempting to get them out, take her to the vet quickly.
I came up with a simple method to help females pass held eggs, decades ago. And like now, folks all told me it would not work, including vets. That was to aspirate the held eggs. That is take a large gauge needle and syringe and remove some of the fluid inside the egg. It reduced the size and broke the connection to the walls of the oviduct. You see, a common reason for egg binding is infection. The shell walls will adhere to the walls of the oviduct. This worked really well. It is easy to locate the stuck eggs and I would enter about two scale rows up. No organs or large blood vessels there. It worked really well, and its no a common method used by vets. Hopefully its a second clutch.

Thanks FR, and agreed, I am hoping its a second clutch and she can pass them. So far no pushing, and her vent is firmly closed. But if I do see that, I will take her right to a vet. The aspirating seems like a good method, and I have heard of positive results, so long as the person really knows what they are doing. I think down the road, when I have more experience with egg binding, its something I would like to learn to do.

Please, I had to come up with that method because there was need. Now, there is no need, as there are methods that totally prevent egg binding. Its far better to offer better nesting then put a female thru that, even if we can remove the eggs.
You must consider, what that does to a female. While most survive, they are not the same, as binding causes scar tissue to form to various degrees. Each following reproductive event, stresses the female and further scars the oviducts. So please, its best to prevent egg binding. Its easy to do.
Lastly, even in the early days and with poor nesting, egg binding was not an every time event. It was a worse case event. The real problem is the stress that's placed on females that did not become egg bound. So better nesting, is easy and helps all and is more fun then sitting around hoping your animal does not die doing something completely normal.

Indeed, I usually try to avoid it at all costs, but I figured it would happen in my colony sooner or later. Prevention is the absolute key, I feel the same about putting them through undue stress. But I think its good to know methods like aspirating in last resort situations. Especially if they are successful and the snake can recover and live a healthy life. The nesting issue has come up alot, and seems to be a key factor. And I think it could vary among individuals. Like some of my females always choose dirt. While others aren't as picky in what they lay in, but more about the size and positioning of the nest site. I noticed this year, that a couple of the females opted for the smaller nest box, and I need to look more into why. I love trying to recreate the most natural environment for my snakes, and I think that's going to be the trick in my future endeavors. A bit of trial and error, but I have been paying attention to the methods suggested, and getting a few ideas of my own for the future.

The problem is details, while you and others will say, dirt or deep and such, I have no idea what that means, pretend your a reporter, who, why, what, where, when. Only different, describe details of dirt, cage, box, etc. That is what is important.
Folks say, FR your assuming this and that. Of friggin course I am, if you do not say anything important, I have to assume.
Lets look at this from another angle. A MODEL. the model we should use for Cal king nesting is what they do in nature. So what do they do in nature? And better yet, why? Why is better because its the REASON, they do what they do. As I type this, there are millions upon millions of female kings in nature that are now gravid and getting ready to nest. Millions upon millions, and in, what six states(Cal kings) millions upon millions. I ask, how many will be seen by herpers? Also as I type this, there are hundreds upon hundreds of herpers flipping rocks and boards and logs and all manner of stuff looking snakes. Yet, few to none will find eggs and only a few will find gravid females. out of millions upon millions. So where are the eggs? While all these herpers are hunting these snakes, so are millions upon millions of predators, from all the natural predators, from insects to bears. To cats and dogs. Am I making a point yet. Where are these millions upon millions of eggs? Lets say, got me, I don't know where they are, the snakes hid them. And Is what they do and why? so predators cannot find them. So its very easy to see, its important to them. To hide the eggs must be of real value and they do that for reasons of survival. pt1

In order to prevent mass corruption of nests by predators, the females cannot leave that to chance. So it becomes inherent. They put eggs in areas that make it difficult for predators to find. This approach is cover above and below them on the evolutionary chain, starts with amphibs and past reptiles to birds. Lets apply what we know, snake eggs can hatch in a range of temps, from the high sixties to low ninties and in smaller range of humidity. Those conditions are relatively easy to find. HECK anywhere there are snakes, those conditions occur. So just maybe, hiding eggs is more important and more critical then the simple hatching of eggs. This is critical, we as keepers are narrow minded and only think are conditions for egg hatching. Which is not what concerns female snakes. Their prime instinct is to avoid nest predation. And your a predator. And its instinctual. So now I will be mean and bad, and ask, what are/were you thinking? I now ask, what were your reasons. My feelings are, all of us would do the right thing if we had the real reasons. But then I am naive

Great point as usual, I am glad you brought that up. Because its very true. That is what amazes me about them, they are very very secretive, and they are the ultimate survivor and predator. But they are also prey, and so they need to balance the spectrum, pretty impressive if you ask me. Perhaps my female is taking her survival to the next level. I found I enjoyed the flipping rocks and boards when I was younger out catching the snakes, but that wears off and it becomes more fun to just observe. They are so entertaining and interesting when they aren't trying to escape and defend themselves. But even still, your probably right, there will be things we just can never know about them, and that's one reason that keeps me in this hobby.

You said, there are things we will never know about them. Well, not true. Or at least hopefully not true.
All we have to do is ask the right questions, in the right way. And that is what this thread is about.

If you set up the right nesting, they will teach you so much. And by their behavior. With poor nesting, they are telling you, its poor by the fact they become egg bound, or weak or lose too much weight(body mass)

I mention "naturalistic observation" because it a tool to learn what these animals do. In captivity. Its all about setting up tests that express certain behaviors. That coupled with observation, watching them in the field, plus participant observation, can reveal a whole lot of what they do.
Interfering with them in nature, or setting up boxes that do not support behavior is not going to teach us much.
I entertain the idea that many keepers work from a FEAR based approach, that is, they are afraid to do anything because something may go wrong. My guess is, that is what you would call a beginner, as we learn, we should become comfortable with our husbandry and our understanding and that will allow us to test more and more without fear of failure.
Most people treat their animals as if they are sick and about to die. I remind those people, these animals are naturally extremely strong and very hard to kill. They have an incredible immune system and an outstanding ability to heal from massive injuries. They take in parasites with every meal and are still strong and healthy. If your animals are not like that, you/we should ask why not?

Well said, and I hope you are right too, and that we continue to learn from them without a "limit" per say. Unfortunately, material on the net and most books and articles are very patterned and very few dare ask the questions that turn up here. I hope that starts to change. I am glad I have had no other cases of egg binding, but with this one turning up, its time for me to expand my measures and see what they tell me

Your right about the internet, anybody can say anything, and most are by good folks, simply repeating what others SAID.
The books are out to sell books and there is very little money in that anymore. As you can see, If a subject like this pops up, you get a few common results, Those that are interested and those that want react defensively. With books, you cannot have that.
Also, if you look at most cages and in particular cages manufactured, like rack type cages, or even vision type cages. There is almost nothing about them that is about the animals needs or learning about the animal. They are made for the convenience of the buyer. Nothing like the ability to hold deep substrate, or nesting, etc.
I even approached the owner of Vision about that. He thought about it and decided it would not help sales. Most folks do not care.
My hope is, there is some that care.

Again, the nail on the head. I could rant for days about the lack of care, because like you said, unfortunately most people go for THEIR convenience, rather than really get to know the animal. Like the racking systems, where snakes are kept in tubs, with a bit of water, and are lucky to have a source of substrate let alone a hide. And they always say the same thing, 'oh most snakes don't move much and are ambush predators, so they're fine in these conditions.' Seems like torture to me. But its the majority way. I hope there is a way to change it and other problematic conveniences. There are days when I feel bad because I can never really give them what they would have had in the wild, but I do my best to make sure they have as natural and stimulating environment as I can give.

If I may, hahhahhahahahaaaaha When setting up a cage, the first and most important element to provide is a home shelter. A place, the snake calls home. Something the snake would go in, if it were not in a cage. Ha I got you on that one.
Once that is done, Then all other furniture can be rotated. Not all at once, but one or two at a time. Questions please

Back when I was field collecting in the southwest I used to keep Lyre snakes. I never had a problem getting WC lyre snakes to eat FT mice even though everyone else could not. They were insistent that they are lizard feeders and they still wewerre not successful getting them to eat.

What I did was build a rock pile in te cage where they could jam themselves into real tight.. I guess this "jamming" into a tight spot gave them the lacking security they needed. Much like a tight crevice. Then I just laid a FT mouse outside of it and it would be gone in the morning. I did this with several lyre snakes and never had a wc lyre that did not eat mice.
-----
FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

hahahahahaha Rainer, Lyres were my first favorite snake(aside from kings), and I too did not have a problem with them eating mice.

You know, they key on bats in nature. They not only chew on them like they do lizards, they also constrict them as well. I still watch them in the spring and see a few on the roads in the summer.

I have always had good luck with the 'just leave the mouse' method. In fact, that's the only way I get my stubborn feeders to eat. has worked every time for me thus far. Not nearly as stressful on the snake. Worked for an injured garter as well, left it overnight and in the morning its always gone. And here I was told most only eat live, and it has to move or they wont eat Now there are a few studies showing some snakes will in fact eat carrion.

I usually put in one really secure hide, and a few 'lean to' style crevices and places to get under with rocks. I like using paper towel tubes in the dryer substrate to start tunnels and watch them dig their own. I also rig them on the roof of their enclosures and watch them tangle through all the rolls haha. Sometimes they even choose to sleep up in them. I also get these soft plastic leaf strings, and pile them on the floor of there set ups, and they usually hide in there as well, just their heads sticking out.

Do you have any specific types of hides or materials that you use that help stimulate and keep the kings 'entertained' so to speak? I am always looking to add new additions to their terrariums, especially if it will bring out more natural behaviors.

While I prefer to feed live. Its as simple as, gives them something to do, that they are designed to do.
The, they only eat live is silly, both in captivity, which has been shown wrong about a billion times and in nature.
I have seen many snakes eat dead food, in fact really dead. Many times, in many ways. I observed a diamondback eating parts off doves left from the pervious years dove season. Almost year old feathers and feet and wings. I was living in Fla. and rehabbing a roadside hawk. I cut off fatting pieces of beef heart. they fell on the porch. We then went in town for something. When I came back, there was a corn snake on the porch eating those waste pieces. not only was the prey dead, it was a friggin cow. This brings up the, why on earth do people believe people. In my opinion, we should listen at most, and believe the animals. hahahahahahahahaha at most. Ok, to research(read) is to be aware, not to believe. To observe is to record as real. Science never says we are suppose to believe anything, only question it.

Rainer, I have a friend who I go "field observing" with every year. He has kept Lyres in much the same fashion you described. Talking to him, he seemed to have more fun building an enclosure that attempted to mimic the Lyres' natural habitat. He said the exact same thing you did, about creating rock walls with crevices, and having no trouble getting them to eat.

reako45

Hi Frank,

I too have had great luck with aspiration of the egg fluid. In the few times I've needed to remove a stuck egg, removal of the fluid worked great. I also agree that it is very easy to do. I just had to get past the initial hesitation of plunging a needle into the snake. I marked off a spot on the needle that seemed to be a depth that would be into the interior of the egg and stuck it through. With a large gauge needle, the egg albumen easily passes through and you can see/feel the egg decompressing immediately as the fluid fills the syringe. It also seems to cause the snake very little discomfort, other than the initial puncture. When placed back into a good nesting area, the females passed the remaining eggs within a day or so and went on to successfully reproduce later clutches, confirming that the procedure was harmless. I haven't thought of that technique in years, thanks for bringing it up.

Will

I adapted my nest box a little too, I took the advice from the original thread on the egg binding, and made a larger, darker unit with deeper dirt substrate(finally found some) There's a hole in the top, with a hide over the hole for added security. She immediately thoroughly investigated the box, and then slipped quickly inside, so I think she approves, haha. Thus far she remains within, I am going to hope she pops out skinny.