Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Your post below with the pics is great, except it only shows, typical petshop color phases. None of those pics represent the areas they come from. In each local, there is lots of variation.
ALso, I was out yesterday in an area between banded kings and desert kings(splendida) and it dawned on me. I had found chain king type patterns there, which do not represent intermediates or intergrades. I have to ask, are these chain king patterns intergrades with Eastern chain kings???
The point is, in these intergration zones Hubbs speaks of. There are all manner of individuals at represent all types on pattern types, not just the two you and hubs map has nearby. In the case of Chain kings, they are a couple thousand miles away and a couple of three subspecies away. What Say you and Hubbs?

One of the great aspects about Hubbs books are, they are slanted from the pet trade base. That is, his books tie captive snakes and collecting. This is one reason they are somewhat popular. His books are pretty much sold in pet shops and herp shows. Again, that is a great thing.
Whats weak about his book is, its not based on any type of biology. This topic clearly shows that. His interpitation is based on his goals of what his books should express. And that is great.
Another book that I loved was Wright & Wright. That book showed locality types etc and was fun, but not accurate as far as species goes. Fun is Good.
While I think Hubbs did a great job with his book. It does have weaknesses. And in more then this area. Its popular with casual herpers. Not serious herpers(in my opinion)
Joe, you call all folks names and say they don't know what their talking about. Joe, your wrong. You seem to believe what Hubbs wrote in a religious way. That is, blindly. You believe in Hubbs. That's not scientific, not in the least.
Hubbs ideas are based on color patterns. Which is not scientific. The first thing you should do when talking about species and their regional relationships, is strip color and pattern away, then examine the snakes. Color and pattern is important on a local basis, not a species(or subspecies level).
The evolution of a species based on color is simply wrong scientifically. The reason is so simple, when they evolved, they most likely were not what we currently see.
The whole idea of intergrades based on intergrading thousands of years ago, is naïve at best. The reason again is simple, the habitat was totally different then. Those arguments Hubbs is using is not based on anything other then that's what he wants it to be. Which is great for a popular petshop type book. What we have here is a problem in CONTEXT. Joes arguing pet trade concepts, vs. evolutionary concepts. Joe, and Hubbs, the book is great for what it is. Love it

I think the chain king pattern in those areas is basicly just a splendida pattern that lacks some of the speckling, or has the speckling covered up by melanin.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Yea, that's what makes them all the same and different. Some black here, some yellow there, That covers all the getula group.
What is it when you get eastern Chain kings with speckling and you do? Is it an intergrade with splendida? Or holbrooks? or neither? Some yellow here and some black there. Oh and sometimes white, which both cal kings, az kings, and eastern kings can have.

I don't know. I'm not sure I understand the difference between intergrade and intermediate(if there is a difference) in the taxonomic sense yet.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

An intergrade is the product of two types. Not stand alone. Where two or more species meet, there can be intergration. The problem with Hubbs use is, its only color alone and has nothing to do with Two or more distinct types. With these kings, there is no scalation, structure or any other measurable difference. Only color/pattern.
Intermediates are a combination of patterns between different color phases. In looks only. Also these areas, have patterns of eastern kings as well. In SoCal, you have S.D. stripes, banded, greasekings, newporters, Black kings(hopefully some still around) Yet they are all cal kings. You know them as types of Cal kings. anything inbetween is abberants. I could add High desert Black and whites, and low desert Black and whites, including Black and white stripe kings. Again, all cal kings.
Here we have the same sort of thing. Some areas have one type of pattern , other areas, another. Some areas, have many patterns in a small area. In So central Az. You can find black individuals, banded, speckleds, banded, and chain king types or combinations of all those. In the grasslands, you can get good splendida, it the western deserts, you get Yuma type kings, I even posted pics of what looks like grease kings from around here. Up near phoenix, you can get banked kings with speckling in the brown bands. And they are no where near splendida. end 1

The problem is based on subspecies, and by and large, that is a thing of the past. At least for now. Now, on a molecular level, they are all the same species with no subspecies. So to think of them as intergrades does not fit. Getula are polymorphic snakes and can express a range of pattern types thru out their range.
Another concept is geneflow. That was an assumption made by science. It was assumed that snakes simply crawled and bred who they came across. So genetic material would constantly spread. The problem is, snakes behaviorally inbred and with kingsnakes, are restricted to genetically isolated populations. If they out bred, you would not have grease kings and newporters, etc. Isolated color populations indicates, lack of geneflow with different S factors(selection factors) I hope this helps.

Thanks for the explanation and Aaron for asking.

I admit I have a heard time wrapping my head around all this as well and it needs to sink in. Or maybe it is the hula lessons I am late for .

I also always thought color phases were intergrades.. but what about pops in a life zone like the black and white desert striped phase near Borrego? It always made sense to me the yellow striped and B&W desert bandeds meet there and that is why we have B&W stripers in that small area alone.

Or the eastern getula which according to the DNA study (Krysco) says that eatern kings and Florida kings take up everything from north Florida down 300 miles into Florida as an intergrade zone?

Is DNA reliable?

I tend to relate everything to rosy boas.. which might be way off the mark comparing them to kingsnakes.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

"Some areas, have many patterns in a small area"

Never mind me.I have been in the sun too long.. I did not read all of FR's reply well enough. I see the answer here.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

Ok so intergrade is a mix of subspecies(you said species but I believe you meant subspecies). I actually knew that already from definitions in the back of field guides.

An intermediate is just a mix of color phases within a single subspecies or species, correct?

Intermediate to me, just going by language, suggests that one form actually turns into another form, as opposed to one form mixing with another form. That's just what it sounds like to me but I guess that's why I'm confused.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Another question I have is, why do you say there is no gene flow between populations in getula? I can understand no gene flow between montanes and other species that are isolated but with lower altitude generalists like kings and gophers, etc. not so much. Even though they form family groups they still overproduce and that would result in some leaving the "family" of their birth/hatching and possibly assimilating into another "family". There is nothing biological that would totally prevent Cals from mixing with splendida/mbk, the only thing that could prevent it would be environmental factors and those don't seem to present a total barrier since they can inhabit so many types of environments.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

ITs easy, here in the area of concern, they are not presently widespread. This is the desert, kings are a wetland/grassland species. They are absent in dry areas, and dry mountain ranges and at elevation. This area is the desert and is divided by many many mountain ranges. Here their avenues are rivers valleys and irrigated farmland. Both of which have dried up from drought and pumping of the water table.
Your from SoCal right. In SoCal, every town, every area has its own color morph of king. If they did have consistent geneflow, they would not do that. They would be the same. But in reality, each local is somewhat different.
I keep saying kings are polymorphic. Which means have several or many phenotypic patterns. Another way to look at it is, tight or loose. Some species have a tight color/pattern and stay the same over many hundreds of miles and many habitat types. Then you have kings, which have loose color/patterns, which means they change to fit a habitat and do so quickly. They respond to phenotypic pressures quickly. Which is why so many folks are upset with molecular(Dna) work. That pays no, zero, nada, attention to color and pattern. Its about the relationships in the past. heck even minor physical differences are neglected.
The point is, kingsnakes change color and pattern like you change your underwear. They do so in response to phenotypic pressures. Their genotype is a grabbag of possibilities to allow that.
With ethology, species and subspecies are not important concepts. The reason is simple, each animal, was something, and is on its way to become something else. The reason is evolution. Its a changing world, always has been, animals and humans, are in constant change to stay in existence.

Less clarify, its not a big deal, But as time goes by and we learn more about how these animals work. Its important to understand what is occurring with color and pattern. Particularly with the use of molecular work. Which seems to be our future.
This thread got out of hand and only because, Joe Attacked me and others instead of having conversation. He defends Hubbs as if it was gospel. So it gets extreme. People and Hubbs can use whatever term suits them. Intergrade works for captivity. Something between two other things. Intergrade assumes all in that area are inbetween the two major types. Intermediate, describes a pattern, that's between two types. Whats important is, in those locals of concern, there are all manner of pattern and color types. Some of those patterns are not like those two major types at all.
Two major concerns, kings occur in isolated populations geneflow between different populations is rare, and between other major types like cal kings or desert kings, is not occurring.
Next I hoped we could talk about how kings work, their ethology. They occur in colonies and consume any snake outside their colony, even other kings. Next, its the drop of oil in the ocean. If you dropped a Banded king in an area of Desert kings and they did not consume it, its genetic material would disappear almost immediately. I have produced crosses and fully understand if you back breed a cross to original parents, they return to normal in a couple generations. So to think intergrades would last a couple thousand years, is odd.
Lastly there is no credit given to natural selection. Which is the key to color and pattern. Zero influence is given to this by Hubbs approach. I ask, what about natural selection? Anyway, its all in fun

good stuff REALLY good FR!

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Next, its the drop of oil in the ocean. If you dropped a Banded king in an area of Desert kings and they did not consume it, its genetic material would disappear almost immediately. I have produced crosses and fully understand if you back breed a cross to original parents, they return to normal in a couple generations. So to think intergrades would last a couple thousand years, is odd.

Really major good point here FR!

Great posts!!! I am glad that info and discussions about snakes is coming back here..!
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"