Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While I absolutely believe it's imperative to provide the females with optimal conditions for egg laying, they do not "scatter" their eggs when provided with less than ideal conditions.
99% of females become almost "stoned" when laying, as anybody who has bred hogs has witnessed, and they lay all their eggs in one place.
I only had one female "scatter" when I accidentally disturbed her and she is a nutjob at the best of times, constantly striking at every meal.
She also happened to be in a 19 gallon tub with 10" of substrate.

She still provided me with 20 "abortions".

That brings me to my second point:

"Abortion" is a ridiculous choice of words.
When I began breeding, I didn't provide females with suitable conditions for laying and it was evident in that some females - (less than 30%) - would pace before laying. However, they almost all went on to lay, without "scattering" and 95% plus of those "abortions" hatched.

I don't want to be misinterpreted, like I said, I absolutely believe we should do our utmost as responsible breeders to provide females with optimal conditions for laying.

I just want to correct certain non-empirical claims and exaggerations.

Jonny, you suck and have no clue!!! LOL... Just playing bro.

Here are my thoughts...

While I do agree that the hogs are not actually having an "abortion", females who can not find proper nesting will drop their eggs anywhere in a last ditch effort to survive. Females holding onto eggs too long and in in many cases does cause problems even if the problems are not evident right away. Sometimes the problem is immediate and a female will hold eggs too long and become eggbound because the eggs grow too large to be passed or the egg embryo dies and the egg solidifies and becomes harder to push out. The internal damage caused by egg retention can cause problems the next time or further on a female goes to lay eggs. Sure, she may have squeezed the eggs out fine the first 2 or 3 times but the 4th time may kill her because of the damage done 2 clutches ago. Part complete.

We also need to consider the effect this may have on the hatchlings. I have seen numerous threads and facebook topics about snakes going full term and being dead in the eggs. I personally believe this has to do with egg retention. When my females lay eggs, you can not see a single bit of vascular structure for at least 2 to 3 days. To me, this indicates that the eggs were laid on time. When a female lays eggs that are vascular it is a sure sign that the eggs were held way too long. These are things we should be looking for and making the adjustments to fix it. I do not feel our snakes should be forced to adapt to our poor husbandry techniques. We should be adapting to their needs. Instead of focusing on Franks choice of words, some people should be looking at the actual message. Abortions are getting rid of offspring before they are due. What we see with hogs is them dumping eggs past due because they can not find proper nesting. This part complete.

As far as females being super active and pacing right before laying eggs goes, this is not a natural way for a female to act at any time while she is gravid. This is a stress behavior and an almost "frantic" search for the conditions she needs to properly nest her clutch. With full cage nesting, you do not see this behavior at all. And I have watched numerous females lay eggs and they never looked stoned nor do they go into a trance like state. These are not sea turtles. If you females look drugged, I suspect that they are stress or exhausted due to retaining eggs longer than she should. All of my females are quite alert and some have even taken meals while laying eggs. And I think I am done. LOL

I agree it seems to be a stress behavior - that was what I meant by the sentence:
"When I began breeding, I didn't provide females with suitable conditions for laying and it was evident in that some females - (less than 30%) - would pace before laying."

Now I use "full cage nesting" and some still pace, it just manifests itself as cruising through the soil, which looks less stressful, but I think you might be anthropomorphizing or misinterpreting it as less stressful. While I'm inclined to think you're right, we can't know till we measure their vital stats.
Labor is stressful for many animals and pacing in advance is not uncommon in other animals - it's just part of the process that nature gives the animal the strength to deal with.

I think you got a little carried away with taking my "stoned" description literally.
My point was they stay in one place, not that their eyes start crossing maybe yours are taking meals because they get the munchies )

Normally the nesting area is secured well before copulation. Most snakes go to their nesting areas in the fall. And are there or close in spring. They tend to use the same spot year after year. There is no discovery period.
In captivity, its EASY for you to support that.
Full cage nesting can be made to work. That you see some nesting and some pacing, is the snakes telling you, your conditions are marginal. If your snakes are digging down, nesting and coming up within a few days of their pre-egg laying shed. Your doing great. If a snake is crawling around pacing, etc. Its not accepting what you offered.
I once attended a talk about hogs, these guys in mich. filmed females nesting. They dug in, in open sunny sandy areas, laid, came up and hid the nests. That was so easy to duplicate. But in order to do so, you have to DO IT.
The term full cage nesting is a bit silly(sorry if that offends you) but the size of the cage may or may not be big enough, and that is THE PROBLEM. In my experience, most cages these days are too small for nests.

Folks do not ask or talk, they take things and twist them, is some contorted way.
For instance. I said, they abort their eggs, not have an abortion.
The definition of abort is,
1 abort verb \ə-ˈbȯrt\

: to end a pregnancy deliberately by causing the death of the fetus

: to stop something before it is completed because of problems or danger

The part in red is what is meant here.
ALso, Egg laying snakes nest, that is, they build a nest, deposit eggs in a small cave, then cover and hide the entrance. When nested the eggs are gathered into a clump in the middle of the cave.
To scatter them around a box is not nesting. Its aborting the eggs, see definition above or look it up yourself.
This was stated below, there is a direct determination on how well the nesting is. Most colubrids can deposit their eggs successfully the night after the shed. Depositing within the first five days is in the good range. Depositing between five and ten days after the shed, is marginal, longer it goes after that, the more chance of problems.
As Gregg mentioned, the first day or two after the shed, there is little to no vascular development. By day ten, theres a good sized embryo. After about day ten, you risk the embryo dying.
Of course there is some variation to this as we all keep our animals at slightly different temps. The above are averages.
Lastly, its not misinformation. And all you have to do is try it and see for yourself. Of course there is a learning curve. But hogs are EASY. WHy do you fight me, and not simply test it?

FR - I like the theory, but at the moment it remains just that.
I've certainly not found your numbers to be close to true.

And when are you going to realize that just because people don't agree with the way you say things doesn't mean they don't try different ways to improve their husbandry.

I sorry, but I have been breeding colubrid snakes for over 50 years, and by the thousands. So the numbers are indeed correct.

What your missing is, you think I am like you, I am not. I develop methods thru testing. Not by reading and believing. I research animals in nature, the test it out in captivity.
You say this and that, and you call names, but I look to nature and test it. Like using racks, AND larger cages, AND more. Sir, I am not you. I have been doing field work for well over fifty years. And a lot of it.
You guys tend to make it about eachother, you the man etc. I am about the snakes, they are the "man" my passion, my love, is them. NOT you guys. No offense, if I can be honest, you guys are a pain in the hind end. Just test it and stop with theory or hypothesis, etc. That ended 35 years ago. If you put have the brain power and energy you use for me, towards your snakes, there would be no problems. Just listen. To them, and to me. All I am going to do is ask you to think.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Yup that's Frank!

Here's the original photo of Pope Benedict...

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

All I ask is to try something and you turn it into this. We are talking about not even reptile husbandry, hognose husbandry and you come up with this. The word worthless comes to mind.

np
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Genesis 1:1

Your telling me it's good science because you are a self proclaimed expert doesn't convince me.
Maybe it comes as a surprise to you, but I actually barely believe a word you say.

Pretend I am not anything but a keeper who stumbled on something beneficial to the animals. I offered this to you folks and that gives you a CHOICE, to try it or not. That it, that's all it is.
Whether you try it or not is up to you. Instead, you guys act like children and attack me. Which has nothing to do with whether what I said helps or not.
In the year since I offered that nesting information, several have tried it and all found it to benefit their animals. The point here is, its not about me, its about the animals. It does not matter if I am smart, stupid, an A burrow, or whatever. Does this method help? that is the question.
How do you as a keeper find that out? Two ways, ask questions, like what is important, etc. And to try it. There is no more, or no less to it.
That you guys gang up and play silly games, make it about a person, twist words, pick on grammer or spelling, is all about you. What I will do is what I will do and that is, today I am going herping in hognose turf, if I am lucky, I will learn something.
Whats telling is, you guys do not ask questions about the method, and you do not test. That is all about you and nothing to do with me. You attack me and guess what, I am older and been there done that. I am not going anywhere, I will keep plugging away. You guys can do what you want, you can go away, somewhere else, stay and attack, try to get along, whatever you want. I will keep plugging away. That's what I do and have been doing it since before you were born. At least I hope since before you(the group of you) as you guys act like kids. You do understand, I am fully aware of the weaknesses in any of these methods, including what I recommend. I already have answers to real questions. Whats odd is, you guys do not ask good questions or even bother to make it about the hognose. you guys want conflict,guess what thats fun to me.

You keep repeating try it and whining that we attack you.

I told you very clearly I HAVE TRIED IT and think it might improve things, but that YOU ARE NOT BEING SCIENTIFIC.

You keep saying ALL those who try it have see remarkable differences and you spout off numbers.

So now I'll say it again:
I USE FULL NESTING AND I DON'T SEE NUMBERS THAT MATCH YOURS.

You are exaggerating your claims!
You are writing some nice theories but pushing them as facts.
You are stating that ALL breeders see incredible differences when they try YOUR METHOD.
When somebody challenges you, you either babble incoherently or start name calling.

It's not your method. It's just a common sense thing to try.
You keep bashing people for keeping snakes in plastic boxes, then you post pics of YOUR SNAKES IN PLASTIC BOXES.

When nasicus points out the hypocrisy, YOU THROW A TEMPER TANTRUM and come up with a feeble explanation that you are building your pristine enclosures in the future.

It would take one shopping trip of two hours and a couple of hours more to provide the sort of larger accommodations you repeatedly describe.

Either contribute to the forum in a more humble manner or do us all a favor and go back to the monitor forum.

Jonny, how your full cage nesting is set up is important as well. You have tried it and not seen the numbers but how is it set up. Exact details will be great. I posted my method on facebook and the people who have tried it and copied my method have seen the same numbers as me. So, maybe you are just not doing it correctly? Or maybe doing this method with females who already have scared oviducts or other damaged reproductive parts is like closing the barn door after the horse runs out.

When I said I'm not seeing the numbers, I was referring to the days after shed.
Overall, I'm DELIGHTED with my results.

The girl who laid the 22 egg clutch, laid after 7 days.
I don't see that as a problem.
I think the day counting might be missing the point.
She is a very healthy looking snake and I think her overall condition is the reason she laid a good clutch.

You're making too many assumptions:
"females who already have scared oviducts or other damaged reproductive parts is like closing the barn door after the horse runs out."
I am very happy with my results BUT WAS VERY HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS WHEN I DIDN'T USE FULL NESTING EITHER.
I just think the results and claims are being overstated.
I, think it has to be viewed more holistically.

If a woman is healthy she'll give birth on the floor successfully, if she isn't, no fancy four poster bed will help.

Don't jump on me for the ridiculousness of comparing snakes to women (at least in this regard I just thought it was a cute analogy

I'll post a couple of pics of my nest boxes shortly.
I'm about to go out shopping.

Will, no hard feelings bro - I hope you are enjoying the debate even when it gets tense (or especially when it gets tense

What is that silly thing you are using to incubate your eggs? So not natural... LOL

Some used car salesman in New York sold it to me.
I'll sell it to you when I'm done with it.

Why are we conversing in two separate threads about the same topic

I believe the virility of many reptiles directly correlates with their going through harsh periods and less harsh periods.

The challenge in captivity is mimicking the right dosages.

Certainly, like you said, if somebody keeps a snake in a small box with a lot of heat, it would behoove (doesn't that word sound stuck up) him to prevent dehydration.

But in my 25 years of reptile keeping, I've not seen the problem in my collection and I think the issue is exaggerated.

Nothing is being exaggerated except your concern over things not meant for you. Oh and I just got a clutch of eggs for a cal king, 50th year of doing so.

Those eggs look good. Congrats. I hope you are blessed with strong babies. I'm old school, I incubate with an oil radiator in a large closet. I use dry perlite with a cup of H20 (my buddy FR taught me that).

I enjoy a vigorous exchange. We don't have to agree, we just have to keep talking. It ain't about us, its about the egg pic you showed and the girls that produced them. Again, congrats.

Will

Heres the deal, whether you care or not, you have HEARD what we have said. Its in your head, I could careless what you think or believe. We offered you our results. When others pass you by, I guess your going to have to think about what you have decided to believe or not believe.
During this entire ordeal, I said, if your happy with your results then by all means keep doing what your doing. This is not meant for you. That you keep jumping up and down, means you have some really odd concerns that have nothing to do with the snakes. Good luck with those.

Glad someone else saw FR in action too.

I said, they abort their eggs, not have an abortion.

You are a liar Frank as you recently said this...

"snakes scattering eggs is an abortion of those eggs".

Plus, what people are you referring to that has ever said they have witnessed egg scattering? You keep referring to this phenomenon but I haven't seen anybody post about that...ever actually. Or are you simply just making stuff up so as to have talking points to ramble on about?
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy,
Look at the bright side of what FR is suggesting!
As hognose breeders, we get to be Pro Life and Pro Abortion at the same time

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Its sad to see, your going back to playing silly "pant me on the back games". Again, All you have to do is pay attention to your animals. You seem to love them. Try something. Then try again. It will not hurt, its not costly and two things can come from it. You can actually learn something and it could benefit your animals. What you can learn is, how it larger nesting compares to what your doing.
I am really surprised that this world is so full of insecure people. Please answer this, why don't you try it? what reason do you have that you cannot attempt to enlarge their nesting to see if what I say has any merit?
So please, you guys have the rest of the day and tonight to say silly things as I will be out hogging. At the wrong time of year and in a place they are considered rare. The western edge of their range. Why you ask, because that's how "we" learn.

A lair, how about say that in person. Again, all you have to do is ask, but your such children, you attack and twist. I may not used the wrong word. I pray to see you at a herp show. I would love to hear you say such things in person. My bet is, you would hide, muchless say anything.

Here's the deal Frank, if you won't want to be called a liar, then stop lying. It's really simple as that. When you specifically say something and then turn around and claim that you didn't say what you just said, that makes you a liar. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

And what is with all of these veiled threats? If I call you a liar to your face, what are you going to do, are you going to punch me? You keep talking all this trash but what ultimately is the point? Are you some kind of tough guy, a bully, someone who uses threats and brute force to hide behind?

Honestly, I'd rather someone feel comfortable to say whatever it is they feel to my face and not behind my back. But you obviously are a coward and can't handle the truth spoken to your face. I guess that says a lot more about you than it does about me as I can take it when I don't always get a positive response, you obviously cannot.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

What the heck is the matter with you. To make it about lies and such is stupid and you sir fit that bill. This is a forum, its about experiences. That you do not have them, or agree, is not about lies. I will say this. I do hope that you have the courage and backbone to say that to me in person. I really do. But I am sure you do not. Have a good day.

To make it about lies and such is stupid...
I do hope that you have the courage and backbone to say that to me in person.

This is an interesting choice of priorities. To me, honesty and credibility is highly valued. To you, you obviously place "courage" far above honesty. But your definition of courage is distorted and completely misplaced. So what if I do or do not say that you are a liar to your face, do you honestly think that my opinion of you is going to change, even if there are negative consequences? Not at all, I will still consider you a liar as do many others. Your bully mentality of constantly saying "say this to my face if you have the backbone" is ridiculous because it's not going to change anybody's negative opinion of you, especially if there are going to be negative consequences. If anything, it will only serve to reinforce their opinion of you and magnify it tenfold.

So the real challenge to you is, how are you going to change people's negative opinion of you? You will say that you don't care but again, that's a lie and one that you keep convincing yourself of. If you didn't care, you'd ignore me and all those others that have something negative to say towards you. But you do care, you care a lot! You can keep telling yourself that you don't and espouse it on the forums, but deep down you know that you do care what people think about you.

This is a forum, its about experiences. That you do not have them, or agree, is not about lies.

Again, this is where you fail. Yes, this forum is about experiences. But when you lie about your own experiences or berate others for theirs, then it's no longer about experiences, it's about the person telling the lies and berating others. You've made this forum all about you!

I've spent many years on this forum sharing my experiences and engaging other people in their experiences. You know this to be true otherwise you would not have privately emailed me befriending me before you even came to this hognose forum. We had several friendly exchanges and you asked me a lot of questions probably because you saw what I brought to this forum and obviously valued my opinion enough to ask my advice and opinions.

Because you have such a short memory and because a post of mine from a couple of weeks back was subsequently deleted when your negative parent post was deleted, I find it fitting to repost it:

Troy, in the time I have been here, you never reported anything, you give opinions. You post a pic of a snake, but not a snake doing anything or any measurables. I am not sure you understand the difference between a report and a opinion.

Seriously Frank, are you senile, stupid or a combination of the two? In case you've forgotten, and it appears you have, last year I posted one of the most talked about, debated and controversial threads this forum has seen in a long while and that was my bite thread and it's follow-up which was full of factual information. You say I don't do "reports", well, let's look at the definition of what a report is shall we?

Report: 1. To give an account of, often at regular intervals; give information about (something seen, done, etc.); recount.

If, in your mind, my bite thread is not to be considered a report, then you are applying a very different and wrongful definition of what an actual report is.

Within the last 2 days you have made these comments:

"Its all about you, compared to them(Gregg others, FR)"
"Oh and about the fighting, you sir, fight with Gregg..."

The funniest thing is when Gregg actually called me yesterday and I told him that you said that him and I fight and Gregg was completely dumbfounded and asked me why you said this. All I said to Gregg was that if FR said it, then it must be true! Yeah right! What you don't realize is that Gregg is one of my best friends and him and I talk all the time. And what do we talk about? More than you will ever realize or accept. Gregg and I talk a lot about husbandry issues, genetics, anatomical and other physiological topics as well as the current market and people involved in this hobby. You seem to paint me as a very simple and one-sided person in this hobby but this is simply wrong. Don't believe me? Go ahead and give Gregg a call and ask him about all of the things him and I have been discussing over the years. Instead of making ignorant and stupid assumptions, get it straight from the horses mouth!

If you offered reports like Mike did, I would be a totally different person to you.

No you wouldn't. You've shown your true colors over and over to people whom first trusted and liked you only to be brow beaten by your infantile and overpowering ego. You are like that crazy cat that will go up and friendly rub against someone's leg asking to be pet but once they pet you, you turn around and claw the crap out of them. You are an angry, egotistical and spiteful person to be avoided at all costs.

I also love how much of a liar and a hypocrite you are. You say you are all about the animals and blah blah blah but yet you constantly brag about how you capture wild animals that were born and used to living in the wild and now they are confined to your animal prisons. You condemn all of the rest of us for keeping captive bred animals but our animals know no other type of life, it's what they were conditioned into from day one. Your animals on the other hand were forcibly taken from their own natural habitat and forced to live in your subpar conditions. Yeah, you are quite the hero!

Another piece of hypocrisy is that you constantly say is that we do not care about the animals, that's it's all about the morphs and money and whatever crap drools out of your mouth and yet in 2012 you wrote this email to me (I've highlighted the interesting parts):

Return-path: frankretes@gmail.com
Envelope-to: troy@rextiles.net
Delivery-date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 17:56:39 -0600
Subject: axanthic mexicans

I hope you can keep this between us, as I do not want this out yet.

Also that black and white one (now turning yellow) is the oddest one in the sample so far. Any ideas on that one? Its also a female. Thanks

Uh, yeah. You are taking animals out of the wild and then only if they have any "value" will you keep and breed them and simply because they are a morph. Yep, you totally rise above the rest of us Frank!

You are such a hypocrite and a liar. This is why people like me and others who know you can't stand you, it's because you are such a delusional and hypocritical liar. And on top of that you constantly berate people and condescend to them and then turn around and try to play the victim as if you are some savior to this hobby when the reality is what you offer the most is hateful spiteful comments aimed at people that think differently than you do.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

...I can't stop laughing!

Great and honest post, my friend.
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Genesis 1:1

You guys are very similar to a flea on a dog. You life is made up of sucking. I do thank you Troy, you gave me your word, As in, TRUST. As I thought, you have zero backbone, and live by twisting and turning everything.
In my humble opinion, anyone who keeps and dwells on all things said in the past, ON AN INTERNET SITE, is a person who has no life, no will, and no humanity. You are a worthless A HOLE. You are spineless waste of a human. And discern, your right behind Troy. So how about you two get off your soft fat butts and do something, instead of worrying about me. As I am trying to do something, and maybe I will. I really am assuming you have fat butts, but you must have, your sitting on your butts living a life behind a computer. When I say FAT, its not about being overweight. I have some wonderful overweight friends that are as active and get out as much as anyone. Fat is your brains.

Well, like I said I agree we must do our best to provide their needs and help ensure the process is as smooth as possible. I think we all agree that it is probably beneficial for the health of the snakes

I also relate to the idea that it might have something to do with the eggbinding, though I'm not convinced that it's as simple as just the size of the eggs. My only female this year to retain an egg was the quickest to pop them out and all seemed smooth but one egg didn't descend with the others.
I personally think there are other variables that are causing the eggbinding that we just don't know about.
Your hypothesis is very reasonable, but I don't believe we have enough organized data to convert the theories into scientific facts and that is exactly why the choice of words and the way ideas are expressed is relevant.
We can all make suggestions and formulate opinions, but till we can back up our opinions with data, we shouldn't aggressively be ramming ideas down other people's throats and even when we do we probably shouldn't
Like I said, I have had a very high success rate for hatching, but I wouldn't rush to draw conclusions, because it would require comparing hundreds of clutches and attempting to isolate one variable at a time.
I remember Rich Fife describing to me how he worked with one of the universities to determine how significant UV bulbs and calcium supplements were for turtles' shells.
It was amazing the disparity between the way the average herp guy would talk about it with an absolute assuredness that he was right and the way the scientists approached it by comparing groups of 100 hatchlings to see which theories really held out.
Till we do that, it's all speculation.(important speculation

You also need to remember Jonny, guys like Frank and even myself come from a Varanid keeping and breeding background where proper nesting is not an option. It is 100% mandatory and will indeed be the difference between life and death of gravid females. So these theories have been tested for years in other species far more delicate than hognose snakes. Hognose snakes are tough and can deal with a lot of our screw ups and come out unscathed. However, the more people get into keeping and breeding them, the more we will start seeing complications from poor husbandry and poor nesting options. With all that said, it is nice to see you posting intelligent posts and bringing up some good and valid points Jonny. Good thread bro,

I think we're overdoing the polite thing.
It's more nauseating than when we were rude, SLEAZEBAG !!

As Gregg mentioned. Varanids do you put up with poor nesting. To make it clear, I did well with varanids because I had already developed and understood nesting with colubrids and pythons. I think I already explained, I developed deep nesting in the early seventies. I did so out of necessity, I had to be in the field collecting Alternas, when my alternas and other snakes were nesting. So I made cages with deep substrate so the snakes could nest while I was gone. That's when I learned they have more abilities that I thought. Previous to that we put in nesting 7 days after the shed. I kept the snakes in those deep cages and they nested the night after the shed. Again, early seventies. Since that time I have applied that concept to all manner of species, including live bearers.
ALso, Gregg mentioned, holding eggs can scar the oviducts and cause problems in the following years. And it often gets worse and worse until the female fails. Sir, this stuff is learned by doing it. And doing it over many many years. That you act like its theory is very odd. Its only theory to you.

You're still speculating
Hogs are not monitors.

I remember killing my waxy monkey tree frogs very quickly, because I made the assumption they were like other tree frogs in their needs. I say, "Do everything that makes sense to you, but don't make assumptions".

Don't get me wrong, after my girls shed I transfer them to the 19 gallon tubs (the Sterilites with the secure lids) with 8 - 10 inches of mildly humid substrate and I think they are more relaxed.

I just say relax on the opinionating.

No they are not like monitors, hogs are EASY. If your nesting is marginal, then work on it.

"I remember Rich Fife describing to me how he worked with one of the universities to determine how significant UV bulbs and calcium supplements were for turtles' shells.
It was amazing the disparity between the way the average herp guy would talk about it with an absolute assuredness that he was right and the way the scientists approached it by comparing groups of 100 hatchlings to see which theories really held out.
Till we do that, it's all speculation.(important speculation"

Unfortunately, your "scientific" example doesn't hold water. Over twenty years of successful turtle propagation has proven without question that uv is absolutely unnecessary. Turtle shell growth is entirely dependent on usable basking heat and the consumption of whole foods. I have had this discussion and compared growth rates with many keepers who espoused uv only to see their ultimate frustration over wasted money on those over-priced bulbs. The modest improvement in shell growth is not from the benefits of the uv, but the close proximity of the bulb (because uv dissipates quickly with distance from the bulb, they are place close to the turtle, which allows greater heat access). When fed whole foods (earthworms, pink mice, crickets), turtles are able to draw all of the nutrients they need if given the option to bask at temperatures exceeding 100F. This is part of the problem, these scientific studies which are held as gospel by some people, are not reflective of the actual issues keepers face, and the theories they "prove" give inaccurate information to keepers. I would compare growth rates of any turtle species with anyone who wants to challenge the value of whole foods and usable heat. I will feed the items mentioned and use my good 'ole 45w R20 floods. These studies encourage keepers to buy expensive, unnecessary equipment when they should just put the money into a sack of frozen pinkies or a box of night crawlers.

Will

Actually, that was the conclusion of his study too !!

I think you have illustrated your complete lack of objectivity.

I oversimplified:

He said that the conclusion they came to was that LIKE YOU SAID, UV was not too significant, if at all, and that diet and supplement were the important factors.
However, the conversation I had with him took place more than ten years ago, so I don't want to go further into detail in case I misquote him.

I apologize for my lack of objectivity. However, when close observation over 20 years has proven my point, I guess I'm not objective. But, I recall an article in the Vivarium in which he was quoted as advocating uv. It was a while ago though, so I am likely recalling a different study than you are mentioning, so as far as that goes, I may be off base.

Will

Your talking about one of my friends and az neighbors. Like the rest of us, he too has grown and learned over the years, as to what is necessary. He also, moved to the fact that shell growth is based on temps and humidity. Deformities are based on dehydration, not calcium or protein or UV. etc.
Again, easy to prove. Give a neonate tort a place to burrow in medium humidity, and growth will be smooth and normal. Force it to sit for prolong periods in air, and you will see deformities. Heck this only takes a month or so to prove out. I did a biology project in 1967, where I raised three neonate box turtles, and had a fourth raised by another student. The test was a behavioral test. It looked at turtles and other reptiles habit of taking food from others, instead of eating food in the cage. In the end, my three turtles grew to adult size in one year. Which was crazy unheard of at that time. They did have a range of sizes, based on, which individual stole food from the others the most. They also grew strong and well shaped. But then, I did not have a fear of dirt. So they could burrow as often as they liked.