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I am not going to respond to Will or FR, because while it was entertaining, it's a waste of time.

I would like to share some of my views on egg binding, with others.
While I might not be saying anything new to the open minded thinkers, I think it's important to put this other viewpoint out there.
I have included two pictures of very contrasting clutches.
The first is what I view as a nice healthy clutch. The eggs are large, plump and consistent in size (the one that appears smaller is attached to the adjoining egg and turned at an angle; it's actually the same size as the others). I don't view it as a negative that the veins are showing on a couple.
The female popped them out effortlessly, 5 days after shedding, with no slugs and no hiccups, typical of most of the clutches I received this year.
In stark contrast, the second pic shows eggs of all different sizes with some looking horrible. There were some slugs, a couple of eggs turned bad and some appear ok.
These were laid by my ONLY FEMALE that got egg bound this year.
SHE LAID 4 DAYS AFTER SHED!! and was my quickest to lay this year!!
Of course, I will not build a theory on one incident, but it does prove that there are other issues that cause egg binding.
I believe that there are several factors relating to the physiological and psychological wellbeing of the snake that cause or compound the issue of egg binding in the same way that incidents of difficult labor of all animal species are caused by a variety of factors.

I also have some differences of opinion, due to my observations and conversations with other breeders, with regards to some of the ideas that have been stated.
Like I said, I have no interest in prolonging the debate with those who disagree with me - it's completely pointless.
I am just presenting my ideas to others who are then able to draw their own conclusions.

I have seen NO difference in size between eggs laid 4 days after shed and eggs laid 10 days after shed.
I have had females lay large clutches of LARGE eggs 10 days after shed, both on the shavings and in "deep nesting" with no problems.
Any females that got egg bound nearly always usually retained only one egg, sometimes two.
I have never had a female stop half way through, because the eggs were too big.
Through conversations with other breeders I have determined that this is usually the case.
I have never seen any female that got egg bound even attempt to expel the retained egg - it's as though she could care less.
Simple logic tells me that a female doesn't expel 15 eggs methodically and effortlessly (admittedly slowly and then give up on the 16th because it's too big!!
They are not giving up on the last one because it's too big!

To be continued....

Like I've said, FR and Will are entitled to their views, but I will no longer respond. I will just express mine.
Greg I did not mention you, because I believe even if you disagree with some or all of what I say, you still will find it interesting (and I might need your help with my idea

In part one, I said I believe there are many factors that can cause or, maybe it would be better to phrase that as, result in egg binding.
Now I would like to say why I think the appropriate "nest box" helps.
I have include pics of how I set up mine this year and a feel good pic of what we like to see

I will preface my hypothesis by admitting it is just that - a theory that I have come to by observation.
It is absolutely fascinating to watch the female maneuver and manipulate the eggs towards the exit with lateral, undulating movements.
I believe the key word is MECHANICS, or put another way, LEVERAGE.
Maybe a suitable analogy would be the difference between arm wrestling while holding the table with the other hand and arm wrestling without.
I do not believe the depth is so much the point (most of my girls laid close to the surface).
I think what they are looking for is the lateral support of the sides of their body while they utilize their muscles to maneuver the eggs and ultimately expel them.
I didn't just include the first picture because it's feely good; I wanted to illustrate what I see.
The female is gaining a lot of leverage as she pushed the eggs along, because she has compressed the substrate all around her.
I believe that this would mean the nature of the substrate is probably important too in this regard.
Another point that contributes to this view:
I and many breeders have found that many females, when presented with a nest box inside their enclosure, prefer to get behind the nest box and lay eggs between the nest box and the wall of their tub.
This might well be because it would help give them this mechanical advantage.

I've included another pic.
She's progressing nicely - the eggs are large, no slugs, 7 days after shed and I have confidence she will get them all out.
She is tucked in nicely and every push is helped by the surrounding walls.
Another key point I changed with my husbandry was to reduce the feeding on all my hognose adults to one food item, every 7 to 10 days, except gravid females.
Another fallacy perpetuated is that hogs have a fast metabolism - they love eating, but they do not have a fast metabolism and will get overweight (racers have a fast metabolism).
While this is another topic to be elaborated on, common sense tells me that healthy females will pop out the eggs more easily.

Another interesting point that, I believe, is because of this crucial aspect of egg laying:
I'm sure many of you have enjoyed watching as she moves 3 or 4 eggs along the chamber at a time.
I believe this process directly explains why just one, or sometimes two get left behind.
It is similar to when a snake eats. They use alternating muscles along their body length to transfer the food along.
Any of you who have fed a snake a food item that is too small will have witnessed how the snake gapes from side to side but can have a harder time drawing the food item in than they would with a larger item.
Similarly, I believe they have an easier time moving 4 eggs along as a group than they do 1 or 2.
When one egg is left behind, you don't see the female struggle to get it out, because they have no way to even begin to push, so they do nothing.
Again, if they have the advantage of the walls to help them push, this becomes easier.

So while I disagree with some of the things that were said by Greg and others, such as "scattering" and "aborting" (I do agree that ultimately they expel them in a less than ideal way) I absolutely do think the appropriate nest box is extremely important, though I will probably go with less depth next year as I think it's unnecessary.

I would like to test my theory, (on some normal, of course) by providing a nest box that contains lots of dividing walls at various distances apart and very minimal substrate to see how they cope with it.
As Greg's SIMS boxes have taught me, things don't have to look naturalistic to do the job.
That having been said, it's harder to fool a snake than an egg.

Anyway, I'm going to see if she's done, though it looks like there are another 10 in her Now I just have to not drop them on the way to the incubator !

Caracal, there is something seriously the matter with you. Does that look like the poor nesting we are talking about???? how in anyway is it, scattered eggs, or some sphagnum in a clear box? In my view, its a good attempt, but you could improve your times by changing to a substrate that's more like they use. But, as you have pointed out, its fine, times are good. And hopefully you females attempt to eat your hand as soon as they emerge.
Why you keep thinking its about you is odd.
Your substrate is great, but your females are not making chambers, maybe it does not hold shape well. Other then that, its great.

But FR all you use is ASPEN. How is that providing them a space in which to tunnel in and act like real hogs? You only keep them in small plastic boxes with aspen thats not even enough to cover the bottums of the plastic tubes.

"Do as I say not as I do theory..."

He also completely ignored what I wrote
My point was that a lot of my data were different and I disputed some of the claims.
This is a perfect example of how he manipulates data to fit his theory.
He ascribes my good results to my using "his method" as though he's the only genius who thought of providing them with deeper substrate.
And he ascribes any differences I have experienced to my not doing things in exactly the same way.
Mostly, he jumps up and down pretending I'm listening to his pearls of wisdom and being a good boy.
The guy's completely nuts!!

Dang, I was wondering why it took you so long. If we were face to face. I would use a blackboard and draw this for you. As it seens you have problems reading.
Gregg and I, made a list of times and posted pics of clutches. In that list of times your results fell in what we considered good. You posted a picture of they eggs as laid, they were not scattered around. So no matter what you did, or method you used, you received good results. If your happy, I and I am sure, Gregg is happy. And it does not matter what method you used. I don't care if you used a tea cup and urine water. It worked.
That you whine when you have good results, that's something between you and your therapist. That you think folks are picking on you is again, between you two.
My/our information is for folks that have problematic nesting, Those that have seen scattered eggs and received egg binding. NOT THE HECK YOU.
You whine because you did not see eggs laid nicely in one day after the shed. I can help you, but all you want is whine. While the results you posted are good, no need to fix. The nesting material is foreign to hognose. I am sure, it does everything its suppose to do. But hogs, seek and live in areas of very particular soils, its mentioned in all herp field books. They do that because its what they recognize. If you gave them something they could easily recognize, it may improve your times to the top level. It also could be as Gregg mentioned, a learning curve for you females. My bet is, if you use the same material with the same female, she will take to it faster. You see, we are working with animals, that LEARN and adapt. It could also be temps as well. You did not mention that. But then, all you do is whine and forget to talk about whats important. So if you would stop all your whining, you this and that. And talk about the stuff, all would be good and fun.

In response to your protestation, "It could also be temps as well. You did not mention that. But then, all you do is whine and forget to talk about whats important."

Get reading lessons, old man !!

"The labor room is a constant 80 - 82 degrees and they have no additional heat. This might be why mine take a couple more days than Gregg's, to lay.
I like the idea that the their ambient temperature is comparable to the temps that eggs would incubate at comfortably.
It seems logical that a female searches out such temps to lay her eggs..."

If I am an old man. that makes you a child. Stop acting like one.
We have totally different experiences, which means there is no way on earth we should "think" alike. And we shouldn't.
You are judging your snakes on your way of keeping, in that its accurate. But that really has nothing to do with how or why they choose nests. In nature, their(hognose) nests, are normally about 6 to 8 inches deep. And thus change temps daily. While you and I(and others) concentrate on hatching eggs, as if its the most important thing. That's not what's important for snakes. They choose conditions based on neonates surviving. hatching eggs is a middle step. If the neonates do not survive, hatching is meaningless.
So behaviorally, they seek conditions that include, hatching eggs and supporting neonates. To understand that is important to them, is why I do this differently then you. Your doing fine, but your setup has little to do with hognose and hognose nesting behavior. And it doesn't have. The snakes do not know, your going to take the neonates and set them up.
Its not complicated, they repeat what works. If they survive to adulthood, then repeat what that took and where. Then repeat over generations. Which is not much different then what you do. You repeat what works for you, then repeat.
please understand this and take no offense. I am not interested in what you do, or what Gregg does. I said that from the start. The reason is, I am working with hogs from a, understanding them in nature, point of view. Not from a, lets make a egg machine to produce morphs. So please, stop with the attempts to make me think like you. That's not my interest. I don't care if your the greatest hog breeder in the world. Its not what interests me. And I have explained that about a million times. pt1

Now if one of you, anyone of you, had some behavioral event that helps me understand hogs in nature, I would and could use it. I would thank you for it.
The point, if anything I come up with can helps you, then please use it, if not, don't. I am sorry I am an old man and the methods used here were used 35, 40 years ago. No offense. Its not new. I bred hogs back then.
The point is, its not about right or wrong, its about what I am interested in. And please, I stated this at the start. Why you want me to be like you, is not in context. My tests are to express natural behavior, its called naturalistic observation. An ethology based area of study. I posted and tested sand, shallow, deep, both. I am testing aspen as well. This tells me if it causes a behavioral change. Sir, I already understand, you can take everything known to them away, you can keep and breed them in a plastic box, with blotter paper and water bowl. No problem, but that is not my interests. I am interested in what makes a hognose, a hognose. Some snake species cannot be kept that way. Compare those two and tells you something about hognose. In the end, I do not give a flying crap what any of you actually do. I can offer options, you can take them or leave them. If those options somehow make you feel bad or inferior, then that's your label, not mine. About the only accurate name I can think of is, insecure. Like, why on earth are you guys so insecure? lastly, I am not interested in what you do, I am interested In what hogs do. Best wishes

Hey Jonny,
You mention that your reptile room is at a constant 80 to 82 degrees but what are the soil/substrate temps? Do you check those as well? They could be hotter due to decomp or cooler because it is humid depending on the soil/substrate you are using. Also, when you offer a constant temperature that only swings 2 degrees, that is not exactly offering options. In fact, you are not offering options at all. Also, how long is your female set up with the full cage nesting before she lays eggs? My females are in their nesting cages weeks before they lay. They have full access to a hot spot in the upper 90's and temps as cool as 78 at the front of the rack bin. They have a wide temp range and will lay where want to lay and not in limited conditions that are forced on them.

Hey Gregg,
Not my reptile room, my "labor room".
I want to preface my post by saying that I believe these are interesting and complex topics - this is what I do and I respect that you do otherwise.
No I don't check the soil temps.
In a mostly closed environment of minimal fluctuations it is irrelevant aside from, like you suggested, decomposing.
I'm sure that isn't a factor with the coconut over the course of two weeks, which answers another of your questions - I transfer them to this room after they shed.
I don't offer them options and I'm still open to changes in approach on that topic, not because I believe in it in principal, but because I am always looking for better results.

Generally, I think when we keep animals in captivity we have completely changed everything and I don't attempt to directly mimic the options they supposedly choose from in nature, though I respect your attempt to do so.
I personally adopt the approach of starting from scratch, clean slate, and just do what works.
I don't view it as "force" - that's a strong word, which implies coercing the animal to deal with conditions that don't suit it.
We are all "forcing" the snakes to live in conditions that aren't but one percent of what they have in the wild.
I view it as attempting to provide optimal conditions.
I have less respect for the animals ability to choose than you do, because I think once we change their environment so extremely, we have robbed them of the ability to follow their instincts in the way that would suit them best and they are just as likely to make poor choices.
I actually view it the other way round.
By exposing the snake to such extremes of choice in such small environments, you are forcing them to make the right choices.

For me, the proof is in the pudding.....

To be continued.....

I personally think the reason we have made such tremendous strides in captive husbandry is because we have detached ourselves from the ideology of attempting to mimic nature.
A couple of examples (off the top of my head and I'm freakin' exhausted so forgive me if this is getting long winded - on that note, I hope you're listening to my side with an open mind and not just looking to prove me wrong, because this is taking a long time
Actually, I'm not going to drag this out.
I'll elaborate on my views next time we talk.

Peace Out!!

My memory might not be serving me correctly and I ask FR, in all sincerity, to correct me if I'm wrong:

I think I briefly touched on this example when we last spoke.
I seem to remember that when Daniel Bennett and others were emphasizing the importance of bugs in a monitor's diet, FR was strongly disagreeing.
His argument was that the correct approach is not to base our approach on what the herpetologists found when researching monitors in Africa or Australia etc., but rather to see what provides better results in captivity.
FR claimed they would do best on an all rodent diet provided they had plenty of heat. He also said, his experience was that this was pretty much true across the board.
I don't know if he still holds that opinion, but I strongly related to his ideas.
I didn't like the way he would talk about Daniel Bennett or the way he lashed into others who expressed views other than his own, but I very much agreed with his message that the results tell us more than the theoretical academics.
That having been said, of course, the theoretical research is an essential part of the process.
But this was 15 years ago; while his ideas made a strong impression on me, I might have some details wrong and his views might have shifted.

Actually that's off, They insisted on bugs, based on the fact that is a common prey item. Remember, Daniel has zero experience with captive montiors. And at the time zero field experience.

Monitors unlike these types of snakes, have two approaches to exist. One is sustenance diet, which is anything to get to the next day. Then Bloom feeding where they take advantage of large amounts of food. Nest raiding, etc. This allows for growth and reproduction.
A good comparison is, Gilas, a relative of varanids. Its in the middle. Its a lizard that bloom feeds, then stores that energy. They nest rob during the spring, then seek low temps and conserve. A couple of real examples, one individual gila consumed 31 quail eggs. Another consumed 7 small rabbits. Both ate so much their feet could barely touch the ground.
The problem with Daniel was, he had no idea what it takes for a captive or wild lizard to progress or even exist. That example was funny, if you fed a medium monitor and supported it with temps appropreiate to it. It would starve to death. When active, these reptiles burn energy.

Oh! I forgot - you thought Daniel was a complete ignoramus.

Your again completely wrong, We simply did not agree on varanids. I am a field guy, he was academic. He did come here and I showed him backup for my concepts, like prey availability.
Took him to a collarded lizard site.

Had him look at the prey base and I asked how long would it take to fill up their stomachs. His answer, a couple of minutes, I asked, how often, his answer, anytime they wanted.


Here he is on my study site. I also took him to see paired social reptiles of many types, including a pair of torts that are still there and together today. many years later.
he stayed at my house, and he saw, mertens nesting and laying eggs, his first monitor nesting, ever. He saw female varanids, form eggs in one day. He did not believe that possible. He saw them in groups, living in peace. He saw them hunt in groups, like wolves or cape hunting dogs, taking down large prey. He watched that in amazement. Daniel is incredibly smart and talented. That's not the problem. We grew apart when he wanted to start his field study, he wanted me to go, but I couldn't, I have hundreds of monitors to support and a family. We also had different approaches to what he should do. I suggested he spend a year in Australia and study a species that's easy, so he could learn the basics. Instead, he simply had no idea of how to tell a male from a female, or the look of a gravid female. Or patterns and routines that are the base of varanid behavior. Instead he chose to study a species that you cannot see. And he was restricted on where to go, he was limited to one small area. No, hes really smart, he just needed to apply that.

Again, you do not use real information and you do not ask, you somehow take and believe social problems, in lew of information on the subject. Your judgemental, and are always turning to that first. The reality is, it does not matter if I or you are Aholes, the question is, how valid is the material?
What we have here is a social group, and all that is important is eachother. The animals are mostly an excuse to pat eachother on the back. I believe you have a little more passion then others, but are still hung up in all manner of things that only hold YOU FROM SUCCEEDING.
There were a few varanid biologist I got along well with. Dennis King was one, he also came here. And Dr. Ube Krebs was another. He too came here. I loved those guys. Most were upset because a snake guy came in and turned their world upside down. Do you know why I was able to do that? its again easy, they allowed me to. They were too busy screwing around with eachother. They didn't look at the animals.

I do not know if this applies here, but here is where it goes. This thought that snakes are different in captivity is completely false. You do not and cannot change an animal by putting it in a box. PERIOD. You can support it in ways that forces it to behave differently, function differently, etc, but if that's taken to far, they perish, as they would in nature.
What it takes for them to succeed(grow, recruit) is exactly the same. The thing is, they have a range, or potential. Their potential ranges from zero(death) to extreme success. And everywhere inbetween.
Nature taxes them. If they succeed well, nature tags them with all manner of life forms to support, to share that energy. Parasites are one example, and predators that consume these snakes are another. Their task is to consume energy, then get consumed and to keep that circle going. nature is extremes, too hot, too cold, no water, no food, lots of both etc. The snakes adaption is to take their slice of success out of those extremes.
In captivity there are no taxes. We should be able to support them to their full potential. My question is, do we?
We normally do not. In nature, they consume parasites with every meal, in captivity, we treat them if one parasite is found. If we don't the snake suffers. In nature, they have an incredible immune system, yet in captivity, they fall sick over any little thing. Any sign of sickness means off to the vet they go. There are no vets in nature. We work our butts off to get them to reproduce, yet in one valley down the road from me, there are millions of gravid females sitting underground as we speak. No bodies feeding them, no water for ten months of the year. All manner of predators and us. And yet, they are doing fine, and have done fine, since before man, muchless you existed.
In nature, they heal from insane damage. In captivity they die from minor wounds. pt 1

In captivity we do all manner of things, just to get them to eat. even trickery. In nature, those tiny neonate hogs are on their own to survive in a harsh environment. And they do it without help. And easily. They somehow maneuver thought those harsh conditions and thrive and grow. I have to wonder how?
That how is whats important, I wonder, why do you think what they need in captivity is different then what supports them in nature. I think they are exactly the same, please explain why they are not?

I'll refrain from answering your question.
First of all, you've proven conclusively that you have no real interest in what other people have to say in response to your questions.
Second of all, it seems you answered your own question several times throughout your own post - I suggest you go back and read your own post carefully; it contained some interesting ideas and if you think about them, you'll see how it comes together.

I think your essential question is absolutely spot on and a very useful thing to think about:
If we could provide the appropriate conditions that would unlock their genetic potential (that has evolved over thousands of years etc.) to deal with all the harsh situations they encounter daily in the wild, that would be far better than having to resort to "tricking" them to eat etc. Ideally, they should just be ravenous...and all would be wonderful and, similarly, with regards to all aspects of hognose husbandry.
However, in reality, I view it as just a theoretical question.
We can't replicate nature, in a 3 foot box.
So we all just try to provide what is needed to reach the goal of animals that thrive.....
It's just about closing that gap, that's all...
Many of us brainstorm and compare notes, even though you seem to find that hard to believe.
It would be nice if we could just find the secret ingredient, but I believe there are several ingredients.
I think we have plenty yet to learn about hogs.
You and Will think you've already got all the answers.
If you do, then why are you asking us the questions.
If it's just to ram your answers down our throats, then don't bother.
You can tell me all day long that you bred hogs 30 years ago, but I learned long ago to close the door in the face of missionaries.

Now we are getting somewhere, your idea of duplicating nature is naïve. No one ever said, duplicate nature. I have said a million times, ethology is the key, the study of behavior. In that, they break it down to three methods of study, one is called naturalistic observation. That is where you set up small areas of nature and test how these react to particular conditions. You do not duplicate nature, you only have to duplicate areas that express, desired results. Which is why I do not use one cage, or one substrate, or one condition for all. I set up tight areas that express particular results.
Simply put, you only need to duplicate what is needed for small areas of concern. For instance nesting, you are not duplicating nature, your duplicating the place they pick to lay eggs in nature, WHICH IS FROGGING EASY.
saying we cannot duplicate nature is you hindering yourself. Simply put, if you want to go somewhere, don't wall yourself in. Caracal, ethology tells you how to do this. Read about it. Your wondering about behavior, yet you ignore how to study behavior. Dude, that seems like your problem, not mine.

By the way, this is also Daniels problem, he is trained in clinical biology and wants to study behavior. Has no concept of ethology and how to study it. He thinks monitors in captivity as a monitor in a box. Which means, he has no concept of what a monitors is, if he did, he would apply it to captivity and express the same monitor that's in nature. He told me, he got a Sav. in died in a month, he then wrote his "little book of monitors" which was genius, considering he know nothing about monitors(in life) Then he got another, it lived six months. Wrote another book.
He use to rag on me about how my aussie monitors multiclutched. On and on he went. I then told him, Indo monitors also multiclutch, he said, no they don't. I told him, I read it in a monitor book. He asked what book. I said his book. He reported species after species multiclutching is this and that zoo. He didn't even read his own dang book. hahahahahahahahahaha

Actually I would if you would say something important. Or even an opinion, which you did a little above. But when you go back and forth about me or that or this or whatever, I assume, you have nothing to say. That seems important to you.
We all have our opinions, and opinions backed by experience. Your welcome to yours, but please, in order to have a conversation, you must offer your opinions, and reasons behind them. Which you do not do. You simply say, I believe this, I believe that. Guess what, that is not important, whats important is YOUR REASONS for believing what you believe.
After all this, I believe, you have a passion for this, but have a lot to learn in problem solving. Which is what this is. husbandry is problem solving.
Its also like fighting, with fighting, its important to know your opponent. Not just know yourself, but understand your opponent.
With husbandry, its important to understand the subject. The animal. Its here, I feel your very weak. You want it to be about you. You do this, you do that, you think this and that. While that is part of it. You seem to and many do, treat the subject, the snakes, like they have zero ability. My little rant above was to show, they not only have ability, but more, extreme ability to accomplish their goals. They can accomplish their goals, in spite of, predators, parasites, harsh adverse conditions, etc, including tiny fragile hatchlings. While you dwell on mechanics. You know, temps and humidity. They do not dwell on that in the least. Whats important to these wonderful snakes, IS HOW TO GET THOSE basic needs. They have thousands of years of refining, on how to get them. Their refining is very harsh. Make a mistake and your dead. Those basics you pick, thems and such, are as Gregg mentioned, very universal to snakes. All species are within a few degrees, what makes them different, is HOW they acquire those basic conditions. I hope you can keep up. I am jumping ahead. pt1

hognose snakes, behaviorally chose to utilize a particular niche to make a living, they then evolved to that niche. As published by all authors, hognose as family, specialize in sandy environments. As species, they inhabit variations of sandy environments. That is known and published.
Within that environment, they utilize their adaptions to seek prey, to seek shelter, and to seek reproductive requirements. Their short thick structure, their muscle development, their turned up nose, are all physical adaptions to utilize that particular environment. Within that environment, they have both instinctual knowledge and learned knowledge, that supports their success. Instinct tells them what direction to seek, their ability to learn, refines what works and what doesn't. They then practice what works, and avoid what does not work. Generations of this, adds to what is instinct. As the environment is always changing, that learning behavior keeps them current. End part 2

With part 2 in mind, certain life events are more critical then others. prey type and acquisition, is a broad area, They can seek a number of prey items to sustain life and progress. Reproduction is less variable. Its that way, because its very important. The subject of nesting is more ritualize, that is, they do it in a way, even if they could do it in other ways. Take birds, a close relative to reptiles. Sit on your porch and look at them. They are flying around, making all manner of noises, eating all manner of junk. some the same as other species, others a bit different, YET, they nest in a ritualized way. And do not nest in other ways. There are stick nesters, hair nesters, hollow tree nesters, burrow nesters, etc. They hatch the eggs the same way, and with about the same temps. But all nest in a particular way. Take that away from them, and they fail. As it turned out, the key to breeding birds in captivity is proper nesting. It also turned out, that's key to crocs as well. And yes, important with snakes. Next page please

So while your attempt was good, relatively speaking. At least it did not imperil the females. You complained and call folks names, because your results did not match others. Hmmmmmmmmmm
Considering that hognose are sandy soil specialist. In fact, they are mostly restricted to that type habitat. That "they may nest in sandy areas?????" In fact, thousands of years of selection tells them, they NEED sandy areas to nest in. Yet, you give them coco puff material and think they will nest up their potential. You have a wife right? ask her how she would feel if you FORCED her to give birth, in the center medium on the freeway. She could, but would she want to??????? And ask her if she would want to hold that baby in her for a few more weeks. hahahahahahaha please wear armor when you ask that. her response is often instinctual and she will kick you in the nads. The point of this paragraph is, you are only considering you and not the animals. They have wants and needs beyond, temps and humidity. Next page please. I am going to attack you sir in the following paragraph

prej·u·dice, noun: prejudice; plural noun: prejudices
1. preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
"English prejudice against foreigners"
synonyms: preconceived idea, preconception, prejudgment More
Sir, you say, you believe this and that, and the other thing. As you stated above. Yet you act or want to act in some scientific method. I think I can be of help.
The most important lesson in field work, or scientific captive work is, TO NOT PREJUDICE YOUR OBSERVATIONS Which means, do not include, WHAT YOU THINK. please, we all think this or that, whats important to understand is, its only what we think. To test or make observations is to not include what we think, our opinions. We take data, and we record results. Period. The acclamation of data and results, is whats important, not our individual prejudices, and we all have them.
You sir, are constantly saying, I believe this, and I believe that. and do so, without reason, or stated results. That is JUST your opinions. So please, if you want me to entertain anything you say, support it with results and observation, not your opinions, Holy friggin moly, everybody has opinions, and many better then yours. You guys say, FR doesn't listen, yea, your right, I will not until you offer something worth listening too.
You say, you want to improve your husbandry, yet you do not consider the snakes, not at all. If you want to improve, go to the nest step and consider the animal, and its thousands of years of living in sandy areas. That would be a start. Again, your goal of being scientific, is so very flawed. To be scientific is to not believe anything Gregg or I say, To be scientific is to TEST what Gregg and I say. Not believe it. That sir is recipe thinking. next page please

You seem to have some knowledge of my varanid work. That work was also based on doing the same approach I took with other reptiles, like kings, and pythons and turtles etc.
The approach was, not to listen to opinions, mine or otherwise. and to test. Don't confuse that with not being aware. I was aware, I simply did not let my or other peoples OPINIONS, influence the tests I was doing. My approach completely changed the world of varanids. Happily that's not the snake world. When I started working with varanids, very few were bred in captivity. One zoo reptile curator, published that five species were captive bred and 58 neonates hatched. Within five years, we here captive produced 18 species, that included all continents, from the smallest to amoung the largest, In ONE year.
Hognose are not in that world. they have been bred for decades and by hundreds upon hundreds of people. I will end with, think about the animals, if you want to improve your results. After all, they are the ones doing the work. Your only task is to support them. Try to support them by using what they know. They are experts at being hognose. You, not so much of an expert. Your just their janitor. best wishes

I forgot to thank you for the conversation. Really I do thank you. There are lots of important points alone the way. When I started with kings, back in 1964, no body cared, but by the mid seventies, I started to rock the boat. I had individuals multiclutching, all females did. And did so for many many years. I had kings successfully reproduce at 9 months of age. etc etc.
When ever you rock the boat, people scream holler and yell. Just like the monitor folks and these hognose folks. The problem is, not am not rocking this boat. Maybe nesting to some. The boat is fine. Yet, folks are afraid I will change things. I hope I do not. I hope to add a tiny bit to it. Not change or revolutionize it.
I hope in the next couple of years, I can add axanthic Mexican hogs to the hognose group. Other then that, I am not interested so much in western hogs, but my son is. I hope I can add some color morphs as well. At this time, its a long shot. This fighting crap, its the best thing we can do. It draws attention. Without it, this forum is dead. Its always been that way.

"This fighting crap, its the best thing we can do. It draws attention. Without it, this forum is dead. Its always been that way."

Quite to the contrary !!
Unfortunately, you miss the point.
Most people are disgusted with the fighting and, therefore, no longer contribute to the forum.

Nicely and succinctly said!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

What's disgusting is cropping a persons face onto the pope to get laughs...Just ignorant. Then all the super sensitive guys who can't handle words on the internet all lol there a** off....Has nothing to do with keeping snakes in captivity, take that to reddit.

What's disgusting is cropping a persons face onto the pope to get laughs...Just ignorant.

You are entitled to your opinion David, just like the rest of us. However, you fail to comprehend the gravity of why these things have come to pass. Was my posting that you are refering to to get laughs? Actually no, it was more or less a political statement, like the political cartoons that you see in the newspaper portraying democrats as donkeys and such. Did you grasp the concept of the "joke"? Apparently not, but that's ok. It obviously wasn't meant for you.

Then all the super sensitive guys who can't handle words on the internet all lol there a** off....

I'm not sure who you are referring to but I'll assume that I am in this collective that you've imagined. All I can tell you is that the majority of us that have problems with Frank are not super sensitive in any measure, we're just tired of his BS here. While you might not accept that Frank's BS exists, I can only tell you that there are people here who obviously liked Frank and had respect for him that eventually got tired of his condescending attitude and made it known here only to have Frank throw it back in their face. Don't believe me? Look no further than here: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=2024037,2024530 or here forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=2020674,2020846. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and you probably can't if you are particularly new here, but Frank has been the epicenter of most of the negativity here since he arrived over a year ago. Prior to that everything here was peaceful, albeit quiet, but peaceful AND respectful.

Regardless, you are going to see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. Believe me or don't, like me or not, I guess it doesn't really matter. I've put my time in here helping people for many years and have made lots of friends who truly know what I'm all about.

If you are tired of the BS here, then you need to focus on exactly where it's coming from. And trust me when I tell you that I, and many others, are tired of it as well!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Then don't go down to his level that only instigates...

If I were you I would just post pics of new morphs and be done with it....I love those pics they are exciting to see what may come in a few years.

Personally I really like the concept caracal has with the "walls" it makes sense for the snakes to lay eggs were they can have some leverage.

It also makes sense that using sand will help them lay there eggs since they know what it is. Deep nesting makes sense too they live in the hot and dry desert and underground is much cooler and wetter.

You and them are the ones fighting, not me. I fight back. So who cares what point I am missing. I surely don't. That point you think I am missing does not have a thing to do with hognose.
That point I miss is a social ladder point. Simply put, I am not you. I am me, and that's how its going to be.
I like things simple, If an old man with experience and an opinion, stops them from posting, then they really have nothing to say. That's pretty easy isn't it?

Dang dude, I posted pics of Daniel and such, and you say nothing, you just change the subject and go back to whining.
Caracal, if you remember on the KS monitor forum, I played this cat and mouse game with my Canadian friend, Steeve. I pray he is well. That man was genius at this type of entertainment. Privately, we had great talks about monitors. But on the forum, we turned the monitor forum into the most active forum in the world. So dude, you need to step it up. This stuff you guys throw at me is weak childs play. Oh and the game is, you have to toss in some actual hognose stuff. If not, you become a weak minded troll.
about hognose, you have this approach of, I think this and I think that. Which is great, but worthless, How about some, the hognose this and the hognose that. That makes the game harder.

When ever you rock the boat, people scream holler and yell. Just like the...these hognose folks. ...Yet, folks are afraid I will change things.

For the millionth time Frank, you've seriously BS'd yourself into believing this nonsense.

The truth is, not everone here is afraid of change or to learn something new. And I should know, I've talked to many here on this forum over the years who are always eager to try something new, even when it totally contradicts what they've been doing for many years and I am one of those people who are always willing to learn and try new things. Don't believe me? Ask your "buddy" Gregg about his and my conversations that we have on a regular basis and have been having for the last couple of years. He'll tell you all about the types of deep conversations we have regarding learning and trying new things towards the keeping of hognose snakes. If you have an open mind to hear any of it, you might learn something new about some of us in this community that would contradict your assumptive prejudices towards us.

The problem that you continually keep having, and it's been told to you countless times and even recently, is that you use accusing antagonistic language towards others to try and deliver whatever message it is you are trying to convey to people. Well, that only turns people off and ultimately turns them against you which of course is counterproductive to what you were trying to say to begin with. And the worst part of it is, you assume way too much about everything about everybody. You assume what we do; you assume what we think; you assume what are experiences are; you assume how we feel... ad nauseam.

This fighting crap, its the best thing we can do. It draws attention. Without it, this forum is dead. Its always been that way.

Sadly Frank, this goes to show the true limitation of your mind. Before you showed up here on this particular forum, we all, for the most part, got along and everything was fairly peaceful. Then you showed up and it all went to hell. That is because you are the true instigator and the common denominator of most of the problems and fighting in this forum. So no, it's not the best we can do, it's the only thing you seem able to do. And no, it's not always been this way, this is the way you've made it. And I should know because I've been here in this hognose forum exclusively for 7 or 8 years and I know of only one other person that caused similiar types of problems here and he's been gone now for 5 plus years.

One of your problems here is that you refuse to accept blame that is rightfully yours and instead place it onto others. Even when people that have respect for you try to tell you when you are in the wrong, you act like a child, stomp your foot and point the finger at everybody else. This is why you fail and this is why you will continue to fail until you accept your responsibility for your part in the fighting here.

If you can learn how to talk to people without insulting, without assuming, without condescension, without overall prejudice, then perhaps there is hope that we can all get along and have intelligent conversations here once again but you have to do your part to help nurture that back into this forum.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy, if I am wrong, SO the heck what. You fight with everybody who "does something". Yes, I did and will knock you off that block of house cleaner. If I was Anal like you, I put post the thread where you told me how YOU, get rid of folks that are BAD. Which was why this place was DEAD. Well its not DEAD, when I post, but is DEAD when you post. That's the point your missing.
I get people thinking about hogs and how to take care of them. And to the benefit of the hognose, That sir is not wrong. If you are so right, then fnning show it.
So get used to it you spineless piece of carbon. Oh I got it, your a jellyfish. From now on, I will refer to you as jellyfish. No spine, no brain, just floats around stinging things.

if I am wrong, SO the heck what.

Well, the last time I saw, I'm not the only one telling you this. In fact, even people that once liked and respected you have turned against you. What does that say about you as a person? Honestly, while I know that I'm not everybody's cup of tea around here, not even I have drawn that much negativity from people like you have in the 7 plus years I have been here compared to your paltry 1 1/2 years here.

You fight with everybody who "does something".

Really? Please, tell me who else I fight with here besides you? Or are you just making up lies again as usual? I guess you being a liar comes very easy to someone as delusional as you obviously are.

Yes, I did and will knock you off that block of house cleaner.

Nice, more violent threats! Please continue to show us what a thug and bully you truly are.

If I was Anal like you, I put post the thread where you told me how YOU, get rid of folks that are BAD.

Again, more delusional nonsense. But I know you've convinced yourself of this, so what can I say?

Which was why this place was DEAD. Well its not DEAD, when I post, but is DEAD when you post. That's the point your missing.

This place wasn't dead before you showed up, it was peacefully quiet. Sure, it wasn't the epicenter of activity when you arrived, but everybody was content and happy here until you showed up.

The point you are missing is, yeah, things get hopping around here when you post, but it's all negative crap. If that's your idea of contribution, I guess that's about as good as we're going to get from you. But that's what you've brought here, negative crap and a bunch of lies.

I get people thinking about hogs and how to take care of them. And to the benefit of the hognose, That sir is not wrong.

No Frank, people that come here are already thinking about hogs, that's why they are here to begin with. You act like you are Jesus or something, I swear.

I will admit however that on occasion you do bring up some good topics, I won't deny you that. The problem is, you have to knock down everybody else who does anything different just to build yourself up. The other thing is, you rarely actually bring anything new to the table. The majority of people who oooh and ahhh at your posts are usually the recipe type crowd that you seem to hate so much but those are the same people that you seem to enjoy liking you. It's kind of an irony when you really think about it, the people you seem to attract are the same types that you constantly berate.

So get used to it you spineless piece of carbon. Oh I got it, your a jellyfish. From now on, I will refer to you as jellyfish. No spine, no brain, just floats around stinging things.

Awesome! You're back to the childish name calling. Again, it just goes to show your true character, or lack thereof. You seem content at acting like a child despite you being in your 60's. Way to go Frank! Maybe when you reach your 70's you'll have the mentality of a teenager although I'm not sure if that will prove better or worse, but knowing you, it will be worse.

Regardless. I can take whatever you say to me because they are just names and lies that you throw my way. Easy enough to just laugh the entire time at your ridiculous and childish attempts at upsetting me which is what I constantly do.

But you obviously get really peaved at me when I say stuff to you. You want to know why? Because what I say about you is the truth and that really hurts you. That's why you act out the way you do with all of your threats and name calling. That's why you act out towards anybody that tries to correct your childish behavioral problems. Remember, it's not just me that says these things to you, it's been a bunch of people that I can easily scour through this forum and the other forums and quote all sorts of posts from people telling you how poorly you are being received around here on KS and what an overall cretin you are. I can do that, but what's the point really? You are a lost cause Frank, you truly are.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Heres the point you are missing, I do care about those people, but a lot less then I care about the animals. Please understand that. Also, this IS A HOGNOSE forum, NOT everybody loves you forum. So I will stick to hognose first. As Always.

I could make a long story about many years ago and snakes, I will make it quick. When I was young, you did not keep/use snakes to make friends or get respected. You kept snakes because you loved them. Everyone else hated snakes and those that kept them. I endured past that, so you little folks are easy.
I do not require you or other keepers OK/acceptance to move forward with snake keeping. Never did.
When you say I am wrong, I could give a flying crap. What you say, isn't that obvious? But when my snakes say I am wrong, I really care.
I came here to hopefully get some insight to help my efforts with hognose, in the field and in captivity. What I learned was, this place is full of self center A wholes. WHo only care about eachother and do not care for their own snakes. Some of you say you do, and that kind of love is not a good thing. Its more about what the snakes can do for you. Not what can you do for the snakes. Think about that.
So jellyfish, get used to it, I am here for a long while. So I say, fit in or go away. I would love for you to talk about hognose, but that is not what your interested in. You use your snakes to verify how right you are. I am interested in how right the snakes are. SO yes, I will screw with you every chance I get. After all, coming here is ALSO entertainment. And you entertain me. Thanks

I do apologize, I understand why your so confused, If you check, you will see, that I used sand, sand cocopuff, pine shavings, aspen, and others in the time I have had them.
You will also see that I have used Vision cages, glass tanks, rack cages, as well.
I am afraid I have to give you another lesson. In order to learn, its not so good to keep them one way. As that teaches you nothing. No matter what I think I know, or what I read. I am still compelled to test as much as I can. That way. I have personal experience about what I am talking about.
Simply put, hognose are easy, they are not going to die, by testing these things.
I am different then many of you, I am not bound to one method, or one cage, or a type of cage. I am not that type of keeper that has a cage for an individual snake. That is very limiting for the snake and the keeper.
So yes, I do see how you do not understand. Your very limited in the way you do things, so your limited in what you understand. Thank goodness, I am not like you. It would make research very hard. I always ask you guys to test things, but now I understand why you don't. You must not have the ability or confidence to try other stuff. Which is why I dislike recipe thinking. One way, your way, or die. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to keep saying these things. pt1

Heres a simple explination as to what I do. I have moved from one type of reptile to another, over many years.
Whenever I move to work with a new type, I follow a loose plan. I first take a year or two for discovery. During that period, I research, gather information and animals, and test as much as I can. I also include as much field work as I can.
I also come to places like this and how to learn and share if I can. In all cases, places like this has a range of keepers. All forums include folks of all types. As I expected, hogs being primarily rack system snakes in captivity(they tolerate small places) this forum would have a high percentage of one way folks. And it does.
What scares me is, all forums have a percentage of yahoos, lurkers, creepers, trouble makers. And this forum seems to have a high percentage. To a point of, you gotta be nuts to keep hogs. I with be discussing this with my therapist.

What's in the smaller tub

What's in the smaller tub

Jon,
I emailed you my number if you wanted to discuss the eggbound female.
The smaller tub is where they hang out when they want to be on the aspen that they're used to.
Interestingly enough, most of them choose to return to it every day, for hours even days.
Most of my females just chill for the first few days after their prelay shed, much of the time on the aspen.
However, I do things a little differently, I think.
The "labor room" is a constant 80 - 82 degrees and they have no additional heat. This might be why mine take a couple more days than Gregg's, to lay.
I like the idea that the their ambient temperature is comparable to the temps that eggs would incubate at comfortably.
It seems logical that a female searches out such temps to lay her eggs, and though a gradient would normally be important, unless the enclosure is extremely large it is difficult to provide everything.
I think there is less stress involved when they are kept at these more moderate temps during the few days of egg laying, though I'm sure there are others who disagree

18 good eggs, 1 slug.
I can forgive her for the slug.

BTW, the girl who produced the good clutch of 15 eggs, in the first post, weighed 180g.

May I yell at you again, your results are great, so why do you think its all about you? You remind me of some of the kids that worked for me building zoo enclosures. If I had to instruct them for something, they would whine and say, DAng, its FR's way or the highway. When that got back to me, I would tell them. Think of it like this. There are hundreds of ways to do anything right, and hundreds of ways to do something wrong. I am asking you, and paying you, to do ONE of the right ways, heck you can pick anyone of the hundreds of right ways. If that is FR's way, then if you choose to do it wrong, you will be fired.
Caracal, why you think theres only one right way, IS WEIRD
As I mentioned down below, your arguments are not about the animals, they are psychologically based. If you are arguing to bring attention to you, WONDERFUL, and the reason is simple, if that keeps people talking about nesting, and thinking about the effects it has on the females. I could not ask for more. Thank you so much. And yes, I will be your huckleberry and do this for as long as you want. But please understand, while I think you can improve on your nesting, its great, and great job. I hope that others mimic your attempts. A wonderful start. Oh and yes, I can do better too.

Why would others disagree? 80 to 82, is ok. No harm no foul. You could go cooler and warmer. And still be fine. In my experience, its around 90F where problems occur.

This is only in response to Caracals first post.
When I came here, a little over a year ago, its was common to read stories of folks hatching a few eggs or a clutch, when asked about the event, it was common to read, the female died, eggbound. This was odd, as many were really expensive morphs.
I received a few hog books, One was hog morphs or something. I tossed the book. The book was fine, but the small husbandry section, was not only naïve, it was poor at best. Simply put, it was all about the keeper and nothing about the animal.
The book showed in pictures, eggs scattered around a plastic box as a successful nesting. That same type picture was posted here many times by happy excited keepers. The problem is, their snake is not happy.
Both Gregg and I, clearly listed how to tell if your females were nested well. One way is, how long from the pre egg laying shed. The numbers you list are good, which means, what ever your doing is fine, stick with it. Why you keep fighting is beyond me.
The method we are talking about is a method to cure a problem, if you do not have one, GREAT, no worries, but in the event, you have a egg bound female, or a series of egg bound females, you will know how to fix that.
Caracal, I have no concept on how you take things, other then you must feel compelled to do what you read. I am not like that. To me, that is recipe thinking. What we write, is based on our experience, and not yours. Its not anything to do with you. Its only of benefit, if you need it to improve your husbandry. If you don't, then great.
The reality is, most don't and some do. Its those some that do, that this type of nesting is for.
For folks like you and other successful keepers, It is only something fun you could play. Have fun