Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While there can be intergrades, There has been nothing provided to indicate that. I have asked for any information that could determine this.
The only criteria so far has been color and pattern. Which is not a valid criteria when determining species, subspecies etc.
To prove intergration would need such criteria as scale counts, etc. And or, molecular evidence. And none of that, nothing, zero is being considered. Only color and pattern.
The reality with kings is, you can observe intermedia patterns in all locals over the whole range. More in some places then others. This is why I call it a petshop approach of deli cup approach. Its only about color and how WE perceive them in captivity. If you take Cal kings in SoCal, your have banded, stripes, black, newporters and everything inbetween, even speckled types. Yet, there is no intergration, its all pattern types. So why would ours in south central AZ. be any different? there is no difference in structure, scalation, or otherwise. They are all the same, except for a mess of colors and patterns. If that indicates intergration, then they would be intergrating with all the known kingsnake types across the entire range.
That these intermediates pop up across the entire range of kings, means that getula has a wide genotype that can express many color and pattern types. Without the need to outbreed. Best wishes

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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

Gueez talking about meaningless stuff like this is better then nothing, which is what happens most of the time. How about, HYBRIDS hybrids also influence species and migration and intergration. I know when we mention hybrids folks go nuts. How about social hybrids. That ought to do it. Are you back yet, or have we lost you to life on the beach. I too am a beach baby. Isle de Saints an island in the antillie, best beach yet, Goats, iguanas and naked French girls, every ten feet. Reefs, sandy beaches, waves, as good as it gets.

I did not mean that your post was meaningless.

What about the DNA study that Krysco did on eastern getula.. There the DNA showed that everything 300 miles down the GA border into Florida are intergrade Eastern x Floridana. I don't know what the scale counts are on that study. If they are the same or different?

Does DNA tell us more than scale counts can?

Or would we be surprised if there were more grants to do these DNA studies on western kingsnakes?

I wish Dr. Kenneth Krysco would chime in here.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

Mtdna, shows relationships, exacting. Its measurable. Scale counts are something measurable. Color and pattern are neither,
Dna is solid written in stone(in their bodies) Scale counts are part of their body, color and pattern change with the winds.
I am not a big fan of Mtdna yet, but I will be once they make it useful to the casual herpers like us. YOu know, when you pick up a snake and ask, what the heck is this. Once it can do that without having to research many papers, I will like it.

I did enjoy this topic. Informative and entertaining, especially Mr. Budro was entertaining. I also wonder about the Santa Catalina specimen and if it rafted there.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Your thinking in the now, not the then. I attended a talk on snake migration, given by Dr. Bradstrom, in SoCal many years ago.
He explained how vipers or crots, migrated from Russia across the Aleutian Islands, when it was a land bridge connecting the continents. At that time, many of the coastal islands were connected to the mainland.
Please no offense, but Joe and Hubbs, are doing that, they act as if time started when they got here. Hmmmmmmmm there was saber-toothed cats in SoCal, and giant torts, sloths, and mammoths, not that long ago in Tucson.
My problem is, I have a unique set of skills, that allow me to understand this stuff(hahahahahahahaha) being an exhibits builder, I built. time line exhibits, Sloth cave exhibits, packrat mitton exhibits, that have fossils of plants and animals from the past. To build those, I had to research them. I also worked with Mitton researchers, so I have an idea of what its about. pt1.

Packrat Midden

Fossil packrat (or woodrat) middens provide information on past environments because they are a rich source of debris collected by packrats in the past. Midden is an archeological term meaning roughly "garbage pile". In order to conserve water in an arid environment, the packrat produces very viscous urine. And the packrat often urinates on its garbage pile, marking its territory and building the midden. When this urine crystalizes, it acts as a glue holding the entire garbage pile together. Fossil debris held within the midden becomes mummified, preserving it indefinitely. As long as the midden is protected from water, such as under a rock ledge, it will persist. Packrat middens are aged using radiocarbon dating. Fossil middens have been found that were older than 50,000 years, the practical limit of radiocarbon dating.

The packrat's garbage pile is usually located somewhere close to its nest, often in a rock crevice. Most of the mass of the midden consists of packrat fecal pellets, twigs, and rocks. But other things collected by the packrat are abundant, such as leaves, seeds, fruits, and bones. All of these items occurred close enough to the fossil site in the past that a packrat was able to collect them, probably within 30 to 100 meters. Thus, this technique provides a very powerful tool for reproducing past biotic communities at a specific site. Additional items present in the midden such as pollen, lizard scales, and arthropods, further add to the reconstruction of past environments. Other mammals in arid regions leave similar fossil deposits such as the Ringtail Cat (Bassariscus), a North American carnivore that leaves middens with small bones, and the rock hyrax (Procavia capensis) of Arabia and Africa.

Middens are analyzed in specialized laboratories such as the USGS-NAU Macrobotanical Laboratory. The midden is first dissected, the fossil parts are extracted from the matrix of crystalized urine by washing, and then the fossils are identified through the use of comparative collections of plants, pollen, bones, and other materials.
So I do apologize, I see snakes as they fit into history of our planet. Not into deli cups.
At this time, all this information is at your finger tips. Just google up, any and all of these subjects.

Packrat mittens are important to herp studies as snake bones did not fossilize well and was rare to find. Mittens, gave a history lesson going back 50,000 years. Which is not a long time in the history of the earth. But showed it was very different from now. Just the simple thought that snakes migrated across a land bridge connecting Alaska and Russia, tells you conditions were much different then today.

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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

i am mind blown

Wow man,

Are you still in the vicinity of that Hawaiin sativa?

I hope so brah, mahalo.

Will

Actually the post was in reference to what is sometimes seen is not always so.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

I know, man. Just messin around.

Will

When I saw Catalina in your post, I was thinking Catalina Island off of So Cal, but now I realize you mean the island in the Sea of Cortez.

Regarding the Catalina off of So Cal (Los Angeles), there is a thriving population of garter snakes in one coastal stream canyon. The story is that these snakes rafted down from Santa Cruz area, as there is an ocean current that tends to deposit floating debris from that area into one area on the back of Catalina. I have seen a picture, and they look just like the Santa Cruz garter snake, with a thick yellow stripe down the back. Anyway, just thought it was interesting.

I have been searching for California mtn kings in Palos Verdes where I live. There have been "sightings" dating back to the 60s, but the data is really weak and usually by people who have zero knowledge of snake species. However, Palos Verdes was an island alot like Catalina and not connected to the mainland until the whole area uplifted. It would have been tough for mtn kings to get here when the surrounding areas had Cal kings and such. This is my guess, so I think the chance of mtn kings on Catalina and Palos Verdes is extremely low. Would love someone to help out here.

Yes I was talking about Catalina in the Sea of Cortez.

There's a picture taken in 1999 of a z on the Catalina Island that's in the Pacific but I don't know if a population was ever verified. I certainly would like to go there and look for z's someday.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Great commentary, Frank. Very respectable because as all good information providers you encourage those who it's provided to to "look it up and see for themselves". Like Rainer, I too would like to see what DNA reveals about western getula. What do scale count studies reveal about them? Interesting and thought provoking king topics; that's what this forum is about.

reako45

I already mentioned, its measurable. first, there is something to keep in mind, its not about right or wrong, it just is. Many of the ways biology sees things, are assumptions. Some right, some not so right, or even wrong. Indeed science had to make those assumptions to move forward.
Take a snake, like an eastern king. I am making this up, its only an example. If they had, 25 scale rows, 240 to 260 ventrals, and 60 to 68 subcaudals. Then take a cal king, they had, 28 scale rows, 265 to 280 ventrals, and 55 to 65 subcaudals. head scales were the same, but some slight rostral differences. They are a similar snake, the easterns being larger and more robust. At first look, they are different enough to be different species, or subspecies.
When we exampled nigra, it was more like easterns, but with slightly more scale rows and ventrals. Then holbrooki, again more like nigra, but leaning towards cal kings. Then splendida. Again between holbrooki and cal king. That would be a nice simple cline. So they would be considered the same species, and could be called subspecies. In this case, easterns were a little more unique, the others were closer, so it got to be, L.g.getula, and the others received subspecific names.
But if easterns was way different, and the others the same or close. they could be separated. Or if the three were similar and Cal kings were way different, cal kings would be unique and receive its own ranking. All measurable and anyone could count scales to see what they have, no manner what the pattern and color was. over the years, I have counted more scales then I should have. Pt 1

Remember, scale rows comes after structure. Like vertebrae count and structure, rib count, lung structure, organ structure. Boas and pythons, paired lungs, organs, pelvic hind girdle, etc. To colubrids, one functional lung, lineal organs. No hind girdle, etc.
With morphology, you can pick up a snake, Do the work, and know what it is. Color and pattern are the least important. But also used when applicable.
Molecular taxo is another ball of wax. Its exacting and measurable, only not by someone in the field. Its also very unstable at this time. Its my understanding that with dna, there is no universal gene that works for all species. Or at least, folks are not using one. The key to understanding this is, reptile parts evolve at different rates. Some solid and slow to change. like vital organs, skeletal structure etc. Others can evolve faster, like scale counts etc. And yet, some evolve very quickly like color and pattern. Also color and pattern has a degree of randomness to it. That is, if you clone a snake, it will still produce a range of colors and patterns. Remember this is a very simple example. In reality, there are millions of genes to work with, so being unstable is easy.