Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Firstly, I have no intention of taking water away from my animals... want to make that clear.

Okay, i've seen/ collected snakes in the field in areas that appear to have no available water to drink for months at a time here in western/central TX. I get a few drops of dew could be available some mornings or their might be some underground sources that snakes have access to and we cant see. Just seems like they really dont have access to fresh water or any water 24/7 like we provide in captivity. obviously that doesnt apply to all of the county...

I know houses are usually very dry and snakes usually dont have access to humid/cool retreats in captivity so we provide water bowls in an attempt to prevent dehydration.

So my question is, has anyone ever tried offering very little/no water but providing and deep/ humid/ cool evironment for a snake to spend most of its time? if so, how did it work out.

I have raised an entire clutch of corn snakes in enclosures filled with moist sphagnum, but no water bowls. They all (20 or so) grew to near adult size in less than one year. However, I fed them heavily and sprayed the sphagnum frequently. It is possible they licked some water droplets from the moss.
I believe they got sufficient water from their food and kept well hydrated from the sphagnum.

wow! thats really interesting. had no idea that was possible.

Many years ago, while in the field studying pyros. This biologist(non herp) brought up this subject. So I tested it.
I raised up hatchling pyros without any drinking water. I made a subfloor and had vermiculite and water under it. substrate above. Not vents, only a couple of holes. 1/8 inch.
Out here in the desert, most snakes rarely drink. Its rare.
a friend in phoenix, regularly records crots coming out and drinking. Here, I have seen snakes drink, maybe a handful of times over many many years.
I also have a really funny tort story, about drought/water and food.
Back to the kings, they grew well, fed well etc.

good info and thanks for replying.

I need to just start asking every question that pops into my head because theres no telling what I might learn.

That was a great question, and its what this place is for.

I live in Chatsworth, and we've had dry conditions for several years now. When night walking I observed several Western toads out and about. They're a very moisture dependent species. I discovered that they emerged from burrows after dark. That observation coupled w/ info Frank shared about Hognose burrows,and how they retained moisture, made me think about Kings as well. Kings, at least Cal kings are very fossorial. I believe Frank said something about the moisture content of burrows helping snakes to avoid dehydration. I have since changed my kings enclosures to include humid chambers where they can burrow beneath the substrate. I have noticed they spend a good deal of time in there. Very interesting topic, Aaron.

reako45

I think i'm going to kinda do the same thing. I've got a bunch of nesting boxes that take up about 1/5-1/4 of most of my cages/ tubs.

Ill pack them full of moist sphagnum so they'll hold humidity for long periods of time.

I can almost see most of my snakes eating, spending a day on the heat, and then living in these humid boxes. won't be the best for viewing, but as Frank likes to say "it's about the snakes".

It'll be interesting to see what some of my non-colubrids do, like my dumerils boas. they seem to drink for about 5 min after every meal. I wonder if they'll stop that if they have a humid box to hang out in?

Its more about preventing dehydration, then masking it.

Once you understand that, it becomes fun and interesting.
Most of our cages are basically poorly designed, they have little concern for the snakes and are all about the keeper. Sad but true.
But by being a little creative, you can easily fix that. All snake species, live in a world of in and out, with In being what they do the most. Some species like kingsnakes are primarily fossorial and spend the vast majority of their lives in(the ground)
Yet, most cages do not include the "in" part. That plus the fact that our indoor air is super dry. That leaves the snakes out, exposed to super dry air. This is what causes dehydration.
That dry air can be limited, by simply not using vents or stopping air exchange.
In reality, if they are not dehydrated, 50% is great. That Is also the average humidity in permanent shelters in nature. If they become dehydrated, they seek more humid/water, if they are too humid, they seek ways to dry out. I.E. water type snakes bask a lot, desert type snakes, only come out when its humid, or work plant lines(inside plants maintains a high humidity) You can play with all this in captivity

Also, its a great question, and not dumb at all. Its an important concept to understand about reptiles and captive husbandry.
Also, while I attempt to limit water loss, as much as I can, I also provide water bowls.

this is something i've thought about, but always dismissed it, i guess incorrectly thinking "drinking water is essential for life"... if if it's only a little.

while I provide humid boxes for certain species during shed already, I think i'm going to give my entire collection a humid box (i'll use old nesting boxes since I have a ton and will no longer use them for nesting after lessons learned this year).

I guess it's just more of the pet shop husbandry that is recycled over and over. "every snake needs a bowl of water big enough for them to soak in, provided at all times"... apparetly not.

i'll still leave the water bowls in the cages... maybe on top of the humid boxes.

the more you know...

Yeah, I'm thinking about the question of humidity and dehydration and how it relates to Rosy Boas as well. Once again, good question.

reako45

Look at the different skin types and compare that to their behavior.

Seen both in the same locales. Kings have the ability to inhabit a variety of different environments whereas Rosies, at least Cal boas tend towards rocky, dry and arid. I'm guessing when both are "in", that their habitations would be similar; holes in the ground w/ humidity higher than on the surface. Good food for thought. I spend too much time @ work and not enough time in the field, otherwise I'd be able to contribute more to this conversation.

reako45

Rosies also occur in Chapperal covered hillsides, and Sandy Bajadas without rocks, estuaries, in mexico there are places where they live in marshes. That's about the subject, just about rosies. Yea, stop going to work and get out more. j/k

Reako,
Rosies in captivity can do just fine on food alone for quite awhile before taking a drink, provided that the cage has limited ventilation.

I have always thought that rosies can do without water longer than any king. Not sure, but I have a hunch based on raising some babies for about 6 months with no water. All did just fine and grew normally.

I kept adults without water.

Only ones I would give water to were babies and gravid females. Otherwise adults would get a drink every blue moon. They did better this way in captivity.

Water causes regurges with rosys. Especially if given water before or after feeding.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

Oh boy this is a good one. When I was young, folks thought that if you gave rosies water they died. Which is kinda way wrong.
So the last couple years I have been having fun with Rosies. I caught a trio of Ajo boas, 1.2.
They were not treated for parasites.

Well, it does seem that rosies are sensitive in the area of hydration. Ajo does not get much rain and water of any type is extremely rare.
In captivity, they drank more more often then any of the snakes I have. Actually daily. They are in a vision cage that has the vents sealed.
on occasion, one or two would regurg if fed larger meals. They have a full range of temps.
So whats a boy to do, I put in a moisture box. a family sized glad container full of perlite and filled with water. The lid has maybe twenty holes in it. I also placed a gallon plastic jar full of moist sphagnum moss with a hole in the lid, in the cage.
Now they rarely drink and no regurgs. So it does seem like rosies are sensitive to dehydration, and water bowls are not the most important method to maintain hydration. Like all other reptiles, they do not want to be dehydrated in the first place. then having drinking water is not needed often.
Keep in mind, since I placed the moisture boxes in the cage about 6 months ago, I have only seen them drink a couple of times and no regurgs.

I learned something about rosies here today. I kept a few rosies years ago and they developed regurge problems. I assumed from parasites, but likely I was wrong (even though they were wild caught). I unwittingly kept the cage bone dry cause they are desert animals. Seems I was dehydrating them and just for survival they drank too much water. I could have solved the problem with a simple moist hide and the opportunity to thermoregulate. Maybe some of these dry land species get all of their water from metabolic breakdown of food. If kept too dry, they suck it from the bowl like a sponge in order to try and hydrate and their system is not designed for that.

A bit off topic as this has nothing to do with providing water-

I moved to the humid southeast back in 92' with 300 adult rosy boas they slowly but surely waned after a couple years. It took a while but slowly one after one had problems .

So they probably react different in arid regions like the desert where (where FR lives). Things are really really dry there. And IMO that is good for rosys. and most other snakes.

So the rosys can take some humidty. But not over a long periods of time has been my findings. Maybe in a dry cage with a humid box (again it is about "choices" that works fine.

After selling off my collection in 95" I did try rosys here in Georgia. The same thing happened. Kept in a garage setup the air is just to humid and summers things really start to decompose quickly . Shaving get spoiled quick and get sour. Mold grows easily. Not the environment for rosys unless you keep in a air conditioned room with low humidity ...which is almost impossible in the south where I reside.

It is not an immediate effect.. But long term effect. I kept rosys for many years in S. Calif and never had problems with rosys. I was so disgruntled with living in a humid place that I decided to breed Florida kingsnakes. Now those are tough to kill sobs. My snake room is airconditioned and still extermly huigh humidity. so you can't be successfully with Florida kings, you might as well hang it up.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

Since 2007 (still very new to them) when I started keeping rosies I've always watered them once a month, but thinking about what I saw in some of their locales (CA & AZ never been to any south of the border) and some of the recent husbandry and dehydration topics has made think about what they were doing in the wild when we weren't seeing them and how they were thriving in arid regions.

reako45

There's been several times I've seen dehydrated looking snakes in CA deserts crossing the road and I tend to think dehydration can be a significant source(or at least contributing factor) of mortality in dry years.

The worst was once during a drought in TX I saw a Coachwhip that was apparently stalking a bird that had just been hit by a car and this Coachwhip was so dehydrated and weak it could barely hold it's head up.

On a lighter note, somebody sent me a photo a few years ago of a wild grayband drinking water off somebody's porch steps during a rainstorm.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Drought kills off millions upon millions of individual snakes. I would think its more about lack of prey, then drinking water
Even in normal times weather wise, drinking is not important to xeric species, they acquire their moisture needs thru feeding and controlling water loss.

That makes sense based on what I've seen locally, w/ what I consider "good" conditions (weather, air temps/humidity) for seeing snake activity producing very little.

reako45

I would ask you to think about what does surface activity mean to a snake? Its not normally where snakes like Rosies, kings, and to a lesser extent, gophers like. Their preferred shelters/homes, are in the ground, not on it. Where they spend the vast majority of their lifes, is in the ground, and in some locals, they rarely surface. Actually only at odd times to them.
Its my opinion, when you start to understand snakes, you start to think of them, where they live, not where you live. I hope this makes sense.

Funny that this topic as come up. A couple months ago my female knob was egg bound and she wouldn't soak in the water at all. I use the plastic tortilla warmers for hides, ( no top and turned upside down with a 2 inch hole drilled in the top).
I decided to put the wet moss in her hide and she took to it right away. I have done the same in every cage now. The Hondos seem to be in it all the time. Every shed is perfect now and this style hide is great for picky eaters too. It seems to provide an "ambush" situation for them. I have tried having the hole in the side of the warmer, but they all seem to prefer the top entry. My Cal kings spend equal time in damp hide and a dry hide that is the same size, temp , ect..
BTW.. The Knob passed all of the slugs at her own pace. That was about one a week and she is perfect again.
-Slim

Glad she passed them, try to limit dehydration, and the snakes will use more of the cage more often. The same conditions that are in the warmers is what they are looking for, all over.
Still use those hiding areas, kings like tight areas to shelter in.

I have noticed that especially with the smaller kings. The hide they use is large but filled to the top with moss. They tend to tunnel into it. Then again, with three or four to a hide it fills up quite nice.

Perfect sense, Frank. I agree 100%.

reako45