Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm piggy backing off a post I made below...

I know lots of people cool their animals for a few months to get them to breed and have great results. And some people have snakes that simply won't breed unless cooled.

However, I bred multiple species for years never cooling them... room temps and small hot spot year round, fed year round, and the only change would be the shorter light cycle coming through my windows.

I was in South Dakota and tried out traditional cool room brumation with no food for 3 years. All the animals stayed healthy and looked good, but not a single fertile egg for 3 years and only a few clutches of slugs.

now i'm back in TX, no cooling and let 4 females breed this year and it's resulted in 5 good clutches with another on the way.

Also, why do we expose animals like cal kings, corns, honduran milks to such low temps for months at a time when there is no possible way they could ever seen that in the wild? It's one of the most unnatural aspects of general "propper husbandry".

**cal kings, corns, honduran milks to such low temps for months at a time when there is no possible way they could ever seen that in the wild?**

Well, I live in Arizona at 5,000 ft in elevation. We do get a winter here with average night time temps in the teens and on occasion a few nights below zero. I have native cal kings all over the place ... and they do disappear during the winter time (about 4 months). In warmer climates (southern Arizona) they will be active longer and some may not brumate at all.

All snakes are aware of the "cycle" of cooler temps, shorter days, and in some areas a climate change (monsoon).

Snakes go under ground to thermo regulate and avoid extreme temps.

What do you think the temps are underground?

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

In some spots at higher elevations or in more northern regions it might get cold and stay cold for a while, but in most areas it does not.

where I am it only freezes a couple times in winter and we have a ton of warm days where snakes can be found basking in January.

near me are the sonoran caverns which are about 71 degrees year round at even 155' down. so the air isnt cold, the ground isnt cold, and deep beneath the ground it isnt cold for nearly the entire year, yet people will cool desert kings for 3 months.

In many areas of central america it simply never gets cold and yet a lot of milks are chilled down every year.

The question i'm asking is "why do many folks expose so many animals to conditions that so few would ever actually see in the wild? and why is it required for some and not others?"

seems like there has to be more going on... snakes dont have to be cooled to breed in the wild, so what part of our husbandry is lacking that cooling them is making up for?

Brumation is obviously not necessary for all snakes.

But they do experience a cycle. Shorter days, cooler temps and in some cases a rainy season. Snakes have adapted to their environment and not all experience or need the same conditions to reproduce.

I choose to brumate my cal kings becasue where I live , it is what they do.

I have success with this method. You may have not according to what you posted.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

You live near Ozona? Are you talking about the Caverns of Sonora? I studied those caves, they are the nicest caves in the world. Simply amazing.
Oh by the way, by me there are two caves, one at 6000 feet and its 72F year around, east facing. The other at 4500 feet and west facing and is 82F year around. I was in those caves literally hundreds of times. Found a green rat and a diamondback at the entrance of the west facing cave. Free tailed bats roost just inside.

Also whats funny is, snakes rarely work the surface no matter what time of year it is. The surface is full of predators, so they must have full operating temps to react to them and seek areas of prey. Species that seek prey on the surface, are what we call common species. Species that have little need for the surface, we consider rare. Thanks for asking those type of questions, their fun.
The reality is, you can call it anything you want, just call them to dinner(heatum and feedum)at some point.

I'm in San Angelo... just up the road from Sonora. and yes, the caverns of sonora are what i was referring to. i love that place, i've gone about 20 times since I was a kid... about 7.

the most recent time i had to lecture one of the guides who was bragging about killing a coachwhip with a BB gun.

i've only been there, carlsbad caverns, and a couple of the black hills caves near rapid city, SD... the caverns of sonora are by far the best.

A few ranches near Ozona, Borden County, Hermleigh, and Bronte (if you're familiar with any of those places) is where I cut my teeth on herping... mindlessly flipping every rock and board in 100 degree heat all summer long as a 12 year old hahaha.

I built the artificial caves at the Arizona Sonora Desert Mus. In researching that project. And hanging out on the devils river for over a decade. I researched cave formation at those caves. Of interest, there was lots and lots of debate as to the whys and hows cave formations were formed. Just like with herp keepers. There was this old guy at your cave and he was amazing. He explained cave formation from a realistic view based on EXPERIENCE. I would ask how a soda straw was formed. Others would tell me all manner of academic stuff about chemicals and such. This old fella would say, Son, so don't you see, and explain it perfectly.
So what did you see flipping all those boards and rocks? Whats odd is, you were normal, most herping methods were and are based on the school systems, and not about herps. When herps were under those rocks, you were happily in school staring at cute girls and wondering what was under those rocks.

by far the most common snakes i found in the area as a kid were coachwhips and bullsnakes. I could usually find one or the other daily despite herping at what some consider bad times and having no idea what i was doing.

behind those two, probably western diamond backs, great plains rats, TX rats, and red stripe ribbons if i was near a natural/man-made pond. my grandfather had a huge stock tank/ pond for his cattle and it was always crawling with red stripe ribbons... finding 10 in an hour was easy.

didnt see any "cool" things like desert kings, alterna, and hogs til i got a little older and began paying attention to things like weather, temps, time of year.

brought a coachwhip onto the school bus when i was in 5th grade... hilarity ensued. no damage done to kids or snake... except my ear drums from all the screaming.

First off, the term bromate or hibernate has little or nothing to do with snakes. North or south.
Colubrids, and even most boas and pythons, prefer cool temps to shelter in and seek heat for needed tasks. Heck most kinds of snakes.
What are cool temps is the question. We often see snakes out and moving in temps from the high forties on up. So I have to wonder what 55 or 60F has to do with hibernating.
I have seen several species of boas out and active in the 50's, as well as five species of pythons from the mid fifties to 65F.
Basically, lower temps provide resting temps so the snakes can conserve energy. When its hot, even in nature, they normally do not reproduce once there are no areas to conserve energy. At these times, they normally seek food to keep moisture and energy levels normal.
In areas of extreme cold and heat, they hit the safest temps they can find. Naively, we call that hibernating or brumating.
there is no question you can offer both cool temps and warm temps year around, and your snakes will work well. In most cases, folks shut down their snakes to take a rest, not the snakes resting, the keepers resting.

ah... keepers resting. I hadnt given much thought to that.

I'm still not sure why some people's snakes won't breed unless they are cooled. Cooling/ brumating was what was taught to me by various folks when I first got into snakes, but then I had corns laying eggs that were never cooled and soon discovered for myself that kings didnt need it either. but for some animals it seems to be something they need, i've just never owned any of those animals.

what i've had produce with no change but light cycle.
desert kings, cal kings, eastern kings, corns, great plains rats, everglades rats, ball pythons, jungle carpet pythons, red stripe ribbon snakes, checkered garter snakes, grey bands, and plains garter snakes.

so what is it about some snakes that requires a cooling for them to be reproductive? possibly genetics... descended from animals that were collected at high elevations?

Lets see, a story is coming. I started breeding kings in 1964. Lived in SoCal and did nothing special, except feed them more then most. As I and the methods aged some, I build my own cages and added lites. At one period, I kept kings at 84F constant lite. and they reproduced every 11 months. I wrote a paper on circadian rhythm. I produced lots of getula, many pyros and Mexicana.
Oddly, they grew well but normally did not produce until their third year. Also, I had about an 80% reproduction rate with available females. Also, they were not restricted to spring. They did and could reproduce at any month. Early on we experimented with hibernation, using refrigerators. There was a high loss due to dehydration. They did fine, but as soon as you warmed them up, they perished.
Then the onset of hibernation started here in Tucson, with some friends that could not breed a hooker. Until they set their snakes up in this room that was exposed to outside elements and let them get cold in the winter. Several were herp students at the University here. I also experimented with cooling. Benefits were, snakes were predictable(the beginning of recipe keeping) They would reproduce in a predictable period time based on warming. They also produced predictably in their second year. And you had the winter off. pt 1

by the late seventies, two schools of husbandry surface. Hibernation and the opposing "lite cycle" The Hibernation method, was centered in Tucson and with many of the "difficult" species, like greeri, thayeri, mex mex, blairs and alterna. (at the time)
By the mid seventies, I was producing hundreds of Mexicana. Including striped blairs, totally speckled alterna etc.
Then the WAR. I moved to Seattle to work at Woodland park zoo. The Curator of reptiles was the head and spear leader of photoperiod husbandry, None other Then ERNIE POO WAGNER. As luck would have it, the company I was working for, rented me a house about two small blocks from ERNIE. So the day I moved up there in a U-Haul truck. I pulled up to the enemy camp. The hate was, wait, there was no hate or hating or fighting, He came out to meet me and took all my snakes and would not give them back. Saying something like, I will give them back once you get settled. And he did. Once I was settled in, I investigate this thing called photo period. Well, he kept his snakes in a basement(perfect place for snakes) And if it was at night, you had to use a flashlite to see the snakes. hahahahahahahahaha Ernie explained how he manipulated the lite cycle to allow breeding and did not utililze hibernation. All the time I was wondering, Ernie what was the temperature in that basement? Oh 55F year around. ERNIE, that IS hibernation. Actually no fighting, the only disagreement was, we kept trying to "borrow"(steal) eachothers snakes. While we again disagreed on terminology, it came down to, call it whatever you want, as long as it works, and Ernies method worked. Some ways better, some ways not so good. pt2

his method was indeed interesting and useful. with our hibernation, it was to shut down the snakes. with Ernies, he kept them at 55F and provided a heat tape if the animals wanted and if the snakes came up, he fed them. Which only happened sometimes. If young adults were a bit small, they had the opportunity to keep growing and produce later in the year. Which I found very useful. With hard hibernation, they either produced early or not at all.
So, I started with no hibernation, brumation was not a term used then as it meant the same as estivate, summer inactivity.
Moved to hibernation, then included CHOICES, and so on and so forth. Which explains why I think recipe keeping is dumb silly. Its a only this way type of approach. Dudes and dudettes, that is so far wrong its insane.
Now to answer your question, Sometimes the timing of the female occurs naturally, sometimes it can be set. Cooling indeed sets that time. Once its set, there is no need to continue hibernation. The female will reproduce within a few days, often the same day, year after year, no matter what you do, brumate, lite cycle, whatever.
As I have mentioned, I have no idea how people think there is ONE way to skin these snakes. That its this and only this. Folks, all that junk was published and now forgotten. If I act odd/weird, condescending. Its because of this, 40 years ago, all this was common knowledge and understood. It is hard for me to think its all forgotten. And its sad. Best wishes

I always dig the "uncle Frank story time". lol. I enjoy having more to think about than "put your snake in a box, feed it once a week, cool it down in the winter, breed it in the spring, etc..."

I guess i've just been lucky with breeding. with the exception of a female king trying to eat a male king this year, my attempts at cooling animals, and a male jungle carpet that turned into an absolute monster at breeding time all of my breeding attempts have been very easy and very successful... put opposite genders together and boom! eggs/babies.

now that i've said that, my next attempts will fail miserably.

Great posts!~~It is amazing how much you have been through with us knuckleheads trying to reinvent the wheel every decade or so.

Should be published or at least a sticky here on Kingsnake Forums and other places.

It is a shame it is not and will be lost and next week/month/year someone will come here and back to square one.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

"At one period, I kept kings at 84F constant lite. and they reproduced every 11 months. I wrote a paper on circadian rhythm. I produced lots of getula, many pyros and Mexicana."

Am I reading this correctly, you produced pyros and mexicana while keeping them at a constant 84? The whole cage was 84 year round?

Also what to you mean by 80% reproduction rate? Do you mean 80% of the females reproduced? Or do you mean 80% of the eggs hatched? Or both?
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www.hcu-tx.org/

80% of available females produced. And yes, pyros and Mexicana types. Now surely that is not best for them or even cal kings, but it was what I did at the time.
With those kings now, I keep them as cool as I can with a hot spot. That works too. there is a range of methods that work. Back then nothing worked, so the 84F year around was good.
Now a days, there are a million methods that work. Not, you have to do this or that. Folks that say that are, naïve. and in all walks of life, there are naïve folks.

Interesting you mention graybands as I've always thought of them as montane or semi-montane. What were their ambient nighttime low temps?

I don't know if brumation is really necessary but I think that for montane species constant high temps will kill the males sperm.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

At the time I was breeding alterna I was still a kid living at home and my temps were dictated by my A/C nazi father.

I had 2 pair that were kept at roughly 78-80 during the day and 75-76 at night basically year round... maybe a degree or two drop on the coldest days of winter. There would be a few cool days in the summer when my mom would complain that the house was too hot haha.

I also did not provide hot spots for any colubrids back then and followed the silly "1 mouse per week" rule because i didnt know any better at the time.

Greybands are not montane. By the way, what is montane?
Not to make fun but, z's are a montane king found at sea level in several places. Alterna, occur is low lying rocky ranges, mostly limestone, but not restricted to limestone. A bit like lyresnakes. In fact a lot like lyresnakes.
Lyresnakes are also found in our mountains, as high as pyros, and willlards and legs and twinspots.
To explain, and what I said was indeed true by air temp measurements. The reality may have been, because I lived in SoCal, the shelves and room etc was much lower in temperature, therefore my bet is, the substrate was cooler then the air temps. Most likely in the low 80's maybe even high seventies.
And your right, high consistent temps does cause infertility. and that varies with species. An extreme example, my first outdoor Ackie breedings, they were copulating in the sun, air temps, 108F sitting there for hours. I said to myself, infertile, they have to be infertile. They were not infertile, in fact very much the opposite. They would sit in shade lines four inches wide. 108F is in the shade, in the sun was 135 to 145F. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm we know so little.

Aaron,
In a field near me where Cal kings live (Palos Verdes, so Cal), I measured temperatures about a foot down into burrows. Big assumption that snakes are about that deep, but in any case, the temps stayed right around 55 deg F most of Winter.

Burrows on west and south facing hillsides were warmer in the 60-65 range.

In my opinion, it is not the cooling that is questionable. What I wonder most is that in the wild, snakes can and do seek cool temps much of the time, like in the 60s. But not bone dry cool temps. Cold with too low of humidity is no good. As FR said, cool is their base, and they seek heat to perform functions. They seem to either be cooled below 70, then heat up above 80. They do not seem to look for 72-78 unless passing thru to get to higher or lower temps. I am talking about temperate zone snakes here.

What would be ideal is to have a room that sits at 55-65 deg, then have a heated area in each cage. Then let the snakes pick what they want to do. Sounds like what Ernie did in FR's story.

Most of us keep the snakes at 75-82 deg range. Snakes will breed just fine and live fine. The lack of cool temps probably means they will not live as long. The longest lived colubrids I know of were allowed to experience cool temps in the room even if heat tapes were left on. Same with rosies. They also needed fewer feedings to maintain. Don't know if others have had different experiences.

I have some Antaresia pythons. They hug the heat always. Much easier lol.

When I lived in Seattle and had my snakes in the basement, It was so easy to work. But, there was some differences.
In Tucson, snakes feed, they feed like crazy, daily, even wild snakes. So, multiclutching was easy and normal. They simply fed like pigs. In Seattle, the very same snakes, were reluctant to feed after laying, at least by comparison. So seeing multiclutching was rare. Ernie thought multiclutching was genetic as he only had a couple individuals do it. All mine did, only way to stop it was not feed them. Except when I was in Seattle.
Tucson is hot based, we have heat radiating from everything. In Seattle, it was the opposite. Cool was radiating from all objects. Your right thought, these types of snakes are cool based.