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The last two sheds my Indigo has the skin on his eyes. It's the only part that doesn't seem to come off. The box in his cage doesn't seem to help that any, keep it moist all the time. After he sheds I have to soak him for several days trying to get that skin removed. I try to gently rub on it, maybe I'm being too careful and I could press harder to peel it off, just makes me nervous. It takes me forever and the last shed which just finished yesterday is the worst. Both eyes look like the skin did not come off. Two days of soaking and still no luck. Any advice?

Sounds like dehydration issue. What are your temps? Indigos can thrive at room temp for much of the year in temperate climates. They do not need temps above 80 F. What substrate do you have in your moist box to hold moisture? Moist sphagnum works great. Lots of it. For snakes still in racks, I just fill half the tub with moist sphagnum.
If it is truly dehydrated, just soaking in water will not resolve the underlying problem. I question if your caging is just too hot and dry?

Sorry. I got hit with a fever this week that my doctor could not explain. Literally have had a fever this entire week. So sorry I have not responded sooner. Here are the cage parameters.

Hot side = 87
Cool side = 79

I have an infrared thermometer which I use for a lot of grilling that I use for this. It's pretty accurate.

He has a large water dish. Always kept full and clean. Large enough that he can submerge his full body. He's only about a year old now so no where near full grown.

His moist box is a tupaware square bowl with a large hole in the center of the lid. It's full of spagnum moss. I soak it in the sink, squeeze the water out, then put it in the moist box. Recheck this every couple days. I don't have a point and click humidity check.

As for the currect problem, don't worry about trying to remove that skin? It will fix itself if we figure out the underlying cause or will fix itself on next shed?

Sorry about your fever. Get better soon.
I believe your temps are just too high. Like I said, my indigos are at room temp for much of the year (except for winter). Your hot spot is way too warm. The snake is dehydrated. Consider turning the heat off entirely, especially in summertime. I have six indigos and have never had this problem, but I never get above 80 degrees. Sphagnum should be ok, but keep it wet.
My main point - your temps are too hot. It is a simple fix.

Hot spot has been turned off. I'll monitor the temps. In the mid 70's good?

Also don't worry about this skin that didn't seem to come off his eyes? It should take care of itself with the temps brought down? I want to know if I need to remove this as old shed left on might hurt him done the road. Has me worried because of where it is.

Thanks

Mid 70's should be fine. I have mine in a room with the AC vent closed and window open at night.
I assume you are talking about the eyecap? I would not worry about it. Is he in a tub? Think you said he is small. Gotta keep small ones well hydrated and he should shed the eyecap next shed.
I keep small ones (under a yr.) in a tub about 1/2 full of moist sphagnum moss. Makes them feel secure and hydrates them. I frequently just spray the moss when it gets dry.

He's maybe 2 feet long. In a cage setup for viewing. Not the biggest enclosure I have, one of the smaller ones. The footprint is 22" x 29". There is a tupaware tub inside this which is half full of the moss. Lid on tight. There is maybe a 3" x 3" hole cut dead center. I don't know that I ever see him use it. I have a reptifogger that is not in use. You think I should hook all that up for him instead? Oh and the substrate I use is paper towels. Will see how the next shed goes with the hot side turned off. Thanks for the advice on what to look for.

Sounds like he is less than one year old. Little ones like security. Needs places to hide. Very surprised you have never found him in the moist hide. Mine spend 90% of their time in moist sphagnum, from babies to 7' adult. For the larger ones I use sterilite boxes full of sphagnum. It is best if the moist hide container (whatever you use) is not clear or even translucent. Should be solid color so the little snake feels hidden. After they reach 3 to 4 feet, they are much more confident, but little ones are pretty secretive and shy.

Hmm. I'm thinking of hooking up the reptifogger now to make it 65% humidity. I never see him in the box. Today I tried to make him go in it. Wanted nothing to do with it. Always figured nature would take over and he would go I. As he needed to. Maybe I'm wrong.

Young ones need security. I just throw a few hands full of moist sphagnum in their tub. When it dries out, I simply spray it with water. The moist sphagnum serves two purposes, it hydrates them and provides a place to hide.

Hi guys,
I'm late to this discussion, but I think I have some experience to share. I have 4 couperi; 2 are '12s, 2 are '13s. I've also had many thousands of snakes in my life.

My oldest male couperi has the eyecap issue, every now and then. DO NOT IGNORE IT! It won't go away with the next shed, it will double up. That said, right after the next shed will be the loosest the eyecaps will be. You NEED to get them off immediately with the next shed.

If the edge of a fingernail doesn't work pretty much immediately, I suggest eye drops and tweezers. The eyedrops I have used are "GenTeal", a lubricant eye drop, over the counter, sterile. The eyecap will have a rough edge, like a contact lens with flaws. Lubricate the eyecap, then push gently towards the center with your fingernail a few times - you'll then see an "edge" appear. Just grab that edge with tweezers, and the cap will slide right off.

The very best part of all this is that the snake knows you're helping him. You'll be restraining the head, only for an accurate procedure. Unlike other snakes, your indigo will understand, and resistance will be little. If the procedure takes a few minutes, your first time, you'll be able to release the head, and regrip after a rest, with no resentment.

As soon as my snakes turn blue/opaque, a week before a shed, I increase general cage humidity to ~70-75%, and the hide box gets sprayed every couple of days, for 95% humidity. This has seemed to ALMOST eliminate the issue. The hidebox needs a hole in the front or side, not the roof.

By the way, peat moss/sphagnum is extremely acidic; I prefer cyprus bark in the hidebox.

For a general substrate, I use indoor/outdoor carpet, like fancy astroturf, from Lowes. You can spot clean with Disinfecting wipes for "little" poops, then pull the carpet out once a week or so, hose it down, then throw it in the washer (ON DELICATE, but hot water!) If you have an extra set of cut carpets, there's no easier way to keep up with the cleaning.....and you can have an attractive substrate, too! (Comes in grass-green, or jet black)

All the very best to my Indigo-loving friends; hope you'll find something useful in my experiences.

Chris

Why do you prefer the fake carpet over newspaper? Aesthetics? Newspaper much easier to clean. No spot cleaning, you just dump out the dirty paper. Spot cleaning impossible with snake that defecates so much.
Why the hole in the hidebox on the side? I have tried both, hole on top works just as well and keeps moist substrate in better.
Sphagnum moss works great for me. I have used it for a variety of colubrids for years, including indigos up to 7' in length. I have never once had an eyecap or shedding issue of any kind. Have you had a problem with sphagnum moss?
Glad to see at least one other "indigo nerd" on this forum. I mean that in a good way.

Your thoughts and words are very much taken in the best way. I'm absolutely hoping for an interchange of ideas and information.....after all, we have a responsibility to the spectacular and unique species we keep!

I agree that "spot cleaning" has a very limited use, for Drymarchon. I completely clean the cages, every weekend, including laundering the carpet, and disinfection of the cage. Nonetheless, a "spot clean" with disinfectant wipes works pretty well for getting the mess cleaned out immediately; and the carpet is extremely easy to just remove, hose, and launder.

But yes, I have a need for the aesthetic value, even though my snakes are not really ever seen by many people. My snakes have live plants in their cages, sand-painted hideboxes, and branches for climbing, even though couperi is quite terrestrial. Call me an indulgent father.....

I'll never be able to prove that the snakes appreciate it, but we both know that they're one of the most highly intelligent species in the world....so, maybe?

I actually find the upkeep of the cages very easy: I just completely cleaned all 4 couperi cages, including changing the carpets, scrubbing waterbowls, watering plants, etc, and it took me ~45 minutes. (The cages are big BoaMasters; right now, each snake has half of a 6'x3'x30" tall; the eldest 2 snakes will each get their own full 6x3 this year. (They are 2012 snakes, about 4.5 feet right now)

As for peat/sphagnum moss, my experience with it for use with snakes has been minimal, but my familiarity is from it's use for plants: the actual pH value runs less than 4.0, which is HIGHLY acidic. Just because snakes often ingest some loose substrate on occasion, and because the inside of our hideboxes are quite damp, I thought it best to use a less reactive/acidic material.

Regarding the eyecaps, I very much agree with your temperature regimen, and keeping the snakes well hydrated and humidified. I also have two waterbowls per cage, because my older girl likes to crap in the water - so I make sure there is ALWAYS a clean bowl available. I have not had the eyecap problem often, with my couperi...the eldest male has had the problem twice. Robert Bruce informs me that couperi does commonly have this issue.

But decades ago, when I had hundreds of snakes at any one time, and worked with a couple of zoological institutions, I learned the lessons of making sure that snakes always had a complete shed. The eyecap thing can become quite dangerous to the snake, if it's not addressed.

Anyway, I look forward to our continued discussions, and hope for other lucky Drymarchon owners to join in!

Um, how do I attach photos on this forum?

All the very best, Chris

Attaching photos on KS is unwieldy and unnecessarily difficult. Just one more reason these forums are all but dead. One of the more popular "social media options" has essentially replaced it.

Makes sense...I use several BMW forums, because I race them, and work on them for my living. But none of those forums has this weird format of each post being listed seperately...and jeez, I'd really like to post a picture.

But anyway, very glad to have the Drymarchon companionship!

Chris

Oh; went back and reread the thread, start to finish. I thought that perhaps the original poster didn't have his snakes using the hidebox because of the hole being in the top, rather than the side. As with your snakes, mine spend the majority of their time in the hideboxes - and I've always used side entrances.

But I'd like to again emphasize my agreement with your temperature and humidity evaluations: I don't even turn on my heat pads on one end of the cage until winter, because my snakes have ALWAYS stayed in the end of the cage which was between 70 and 77 degrees. The warm hide box? They go there to poop.....

I have used hide boxes with holes in top or bottom. Does not make much difference to the snakes. Only reason I prefer top hole is bigger snakes push the moss out of the hole, into the cage and when I pull box out of cage, moss falls onto floor. My biggest indigo is a 2011 male, about 7' long. He can make a pretty big mess pushing substrate around.
Sounds like you have some great caging.

Just to give an update. As I said before he just never seemed to take to the box at all. I started just putting him in the box myself. At first he would stay for short periods then come back out. Each day that I held him I would put him back in the box. I then tried just leaving the lid loose and rather than depend on the hole at the top, I left about a 2" crack in it. Just set the lid on and slide it back 2 inches. Upon doing this I hardly ever see him out of the box now. I'm not sure what difference that made but it did something.

We've gone through a few sheds now and the skin on the eyes is not an issue any longer. Finally getting a normal shed from him. The entire thing is in tact. At least I hope that's normal. Looks like all my other snakes now.

Thanks for the help on this. Now if I can just figure out how often he should be allowed to eat. Lol. I think he would consume 10 mice every day if I let him and anything else I toss in there. Just kind of been feeding him 2-3 times a week and watching his body to make sure he doesn't look fat. About the best I know to do. He is a little over a year old now. Is it unrealistic to ask about how big he should be at this time? Maybe that will give me an idea if I'm over feeding or underfeeding I hope.

http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_4/Issue_1/Stevenson_etal_2009.pdf

This is a link to a study on Indigo size. Personally, I found the results so astounding, that I asked R. Bruce if they were possible....he said yes.

I received my first pair of couperi when they were 11 months old; they were 22" and 24". Now, at almost exactly 2 years old, they are well over 4 feet long.

I received my second pair when they were 8 months old, and about 18". I feed them only about every 5-7 days, but pretty much however much they'll eat at that time. Now, they are exactly a year old, and they are ~29 to 30".......That's a foot of growth, in 4 months!

Which reminds me - I've got to go clean cages and defrost some critters.....

All the best!
Chris

Thanks for the article citation bmwracer. Did you check out that great looking male indigo the woman is holding in Figure 1? I assume it is from the study. If so, that is one wild snake that is finding lots and lots of food. I would like to think it is from the study, and not a pet used for a photo op.

Indeed, I would expect that the snake is wild. I am a member of the Orianne Society, one of the originators of this study. They exist to study and protect couperi, and in fact own and protect a huge tract of habitat in Southern Gerogia.

If you want to see all they do, Google The Orianne Society; they are at 579 Hwy 441 South, Clayton, GA 30525; phone 706-212-0112.

And yeah, I want my babies to look like that snake soon!

Chris

Yeah, I have a sphagnum filled box in every snake cage. Resolves all shedding/eyecap issues. They grow quickly, given lots of food. My 2013 all black male now weighs in at 2.25 lbs. he is between 4 and 5 feet in length. I feed at least 2X per week, multiple items. Sometimes breeders just maintenance feed. And because it take a couple months or so to get the permit, lots of baby indigos seem under-sized when you finally get them. Just my opinion. As you likely already know, they do better on multiple small food items. My 2013 male cannot take a small rat, but I have a corn snake about half as big that easily swallows small rats. Once they reach sexual maturity, I slow down the food train, but yearlings need lots of food. My opinion only. Others choose to grow them slowly.

My 2013 male. Took a measurement tonight. As tame as he is I can't seem to get him to sit still on the floor. Lol. Using a string and measuring from nose to tip of tail, ~43". That seem on par? How much do you feed twice a week? Three mice? 5 mice? As much as he will eat in 5, 10... Minutes? I just fed him yesterday. Pooped today so cleaned out his cage. I put him back in his cage and then cleaned out his moss box to add new moss. He had crawled under the paper towels substrate. So as I slide the glass door back to put the moss box back in he literally flew out from under the paper towels, bolted right to the open door, and was all raised up just looking at me as if to say "where is the food". I just blinked at him. Never seen him or any snake I own move so darn fast before. It was like he just appeared from no where. The look he gave me. I see more and more every day why people say these are just a different experience when it comes to a snake.

I didn't feed him again but now I'm worried I might not be feeding him enough.

Also each day I have him it has me thinking I need to go buy a female and take a shot at breeding them a few years down the road. Never breed any of my reptiles before and this is probably a tough snake to be my first start but I can't help it. It's just so different from my kingsnakes. Dunno if I could ever get rid of any babies though. How could you part with them. Be like a bunch of cute puppies that you can't give away.

That is good growth. I feed my 2013 average 2X week, sometimes 3X. My 2013 all black male ate 3 mice yesterday. Sometimes throw in a chick. Or chunk of snake meat. As long as he shows good growth in length, not just girth, I feed heavily. When growth in length slows, I cut down on food. Really just like I feed all colubrids, just more frequent. Seems like lots of folks underfeed babies, but overfeed adults!
They eat much more in summer. My 7' 2011 male eats sporadically in fall/winter. Maybe every 10 days.

Also, males get larger. Longer and heavier.

I feed mine as much as they'll eat. Your '13 snake is much larger than my pair of '13 snakes.... and I have to think this is because the breeder was "maintenance feeding". In fact, he told me so, when I questioned him about the study on size.

By your question over whether I feed my snakes as much as they'll eat in 5 minutes, we have the same breeder. And as much as I respect this couperi master, I feed them all the animals they'll eat at each feeding, however long it takes.

My pair of '13 snakes were about ~18", when I receeived them in May. They are about 30" now.

My '12 pair was exactly a year old when I got them (USFWS lost my permit applications TWICE!). That pair was only 22" when I got them. Now, 1 year later, they are ~ 54" The female of the '12 pair really only eats birds, although I lay chick legs on top of a mouse now and then, to smuggle in the rodents. She also gets 1/4 of a human vitamin now and then, as there is some debate over whether birds are less nutritious than rodents.

I fed them all last Saturday. The older (red-throat) male at 2 large adult mice, 1 rat pup, and 2 baby quail. The older (red throat) female ate 1 baby quail and 2 chicks. The '13 (all black) male ate 4 hoppers, the '13 female ate only 2 hopper mice.
All of them were offered more food, and all refused.

I spoil them. I was feeling that maybe I could feed them twice a week, so I defrosted a bunch of food last night -- mice, rats, chicks.....and not a single snake would take food. Tonight, I cleaned cages, and the big male said he'd eat..... like your experience, he lets me know!

Yeah, I love these snakes! I have had many thousands of snakes in my life, from king snakes to mambas. But I doubt if I'll ever keep anything but Drymarchon again!

All the best!
Chris

Maintenance feeding is just underfeeding to save a few bucks on food. Not good for colubrid neonates. Ball python breeders are notorious for this.

I know this kind of got off track but to keep the new question going, does this maintenance feeding ever stunt their growth or would they pick right up and grow like they should when given the proper amount of food?

This could get kind of controversial, but I know with some species of colubrids it can result in picky eaters. There is just no reason to starve (maintenance feed) a Drymarchon for several months, other than it saves the breeder a few dollars in food. If I read the post corectly, a baby indigo grew only 4" in a year while it was being maintenance fed. I realize that snakes continue to grow throughout their lives, albeit much more slowly after reaching sexual maturity. But much of their growth occurs in that first year.
I doubt if there are studies to support this; it is anecdotal, based upon conversations I have had with others and observations I have made. I am sure the breeder disagrees with me. But ask yourself one question. Why would you "maintenance feed" for almost a year? Gotta be just one reason.

Well, I read that earlier post again. I was wrong about growing 4" in a year. My apologies. That would have been extreme even with maintenance feeding!

Just to clarify, the breeder told me he feeds them as he does, because he'd need whole bunches of big cages otherwise. In fact, here's a quote from an email:

QUOTE
I've had indigos double in weight in about two months. I have to hold them back when they are babies, otherwise I'd have 50 to 100 animals that needed switching to bigger cages.

If they get as much food as they want and their environment supports eating a lot, Eastern Indigo males can be 4 to 5 feet after one year, six to seven feet at two years and up to eight feet at three years. Take one foot off for females. I wouldn't breed them until they were at least three years old though, and I haven't had good success with females until they are 5 years old.

I've found that couperi grow rapidly at any age until they are adults. If they become more than 2 inches in diameter at their thickest point, they are overweight. I can't give you a reliable growth curve because it depends on food supply and their environment being right. In captivity though, you do want to be aware of the possibility of any feeding regimen making an indigo overweight, especially if you are trying to achieve rapid growth. It sounds like you are doing great.

UNQUOTE

Yes, I wish I'd received them when they were younger; so I could have fed them more. But I'm hopeful that they're going to be able to make up for the deficit. Why everyone else can get their couperi to eat three times a week, and I can't seem to get mine to eat more often, I don't know. Maybe it was that lengthy, skimpy initial feeding regimen? But certainly, none of my snakes are skinny.

And they are all growing very well now....
Chris

would love to see photos. You may wish to visit "Drymarchon Enthusiasts" on Facebook.