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From time to time I'll see snakes offered for sale that have small spine deformaties. usually the ad will say something along the lines of "spine kinks cause by temperature fluctuations" or "my incubator temps didn't stay at a constant temp and it resulted in a spine deformaty".

I find temp changes hard to believe as the sole culprit. I've never used incubators for any colubrids... i've just put plastic tubs full of eggs on a shelf in my house and forgot about them.

60-80 days later a nose is poking out. 24 hrs after I notice the first pip, I cut the other eggs in the clutch. I've been measuring the temps on the shelf where I have my clutches sitting now and it gets as high as 82 in the day and as low as 72 at night. I have them on a shelf near the ceiling in my snake room on a SW facing wall.

I've never seen a kink... though i've only produced a little over a thousand babies, not the tens or hundereds of thousands some big breeders have.

so what is everyone's opinion on the kinks? if temps, how high/low does it need to be and how quickly does the temp need to change to cause the deformaty?

That is a great question. I too have hatched out many colubrid eggs on a shelf at room temperature, in a box full of damp substrate. Usually spaghnum moss. The temps fluctuate from high 60's to mid 80's. I have never seen a kink either. It makes me question if another factor, maybe intensive inbreeding, can cause kinking. I know indigos are prone to kinking and the captive population is small and pretty inbred.

I've always assumed it was from extended temperature spikes.
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westmextricolors.wix.com/west1

i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Yeah, me too. But I have just accepted that as fact, without anything to back it up. I know for a fact, because it is well documented, that higher incubation temps effect sex ratios in turtles and crocs. But is it documented that higher temps or temp spikes cause spinal kinks? Or is it really just speculation?

how much of a spike? hitting 90, 95?

how long does the spike have to last?

My guess is it would have more to do with them not having any recovery period afterwards than the heat spike itself.

What I mean is, in nature, they may have several hours a day where the temps may hit low triple digits but the inverse is they may have temps as low as 40's or 50's at night.

However, when we use incubators and get an extended heat spike the lowest temp it's going to go down to is mid/high 70's, giving the embryo no real recovery time.

This is why I think those of us who don't incubate don't come across heat related kinking in our neonates.

Also, most quadrupeds use their spinal columns as a primary/secondary/tertiary form of heat dispersal, so there's anecdotal evidence to support this claim.
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westmextricolors.wix.com/west1

i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

Hi guys,

I think you and Aaron have hit the nail on the head. It's likely that because you allow fluctuation in incubation temps you do not see such issues. I have had a few spinal kinks over the many thousand colubrids and pythons that I've hatched, and most could be attributed to "oh shat" moments when I've walked into the incubation closet and realized that the thermo malfunctioned or was accidently reprogrammed to allow damaging heat for several hours. But, when incubating colubrids on a shelf, as you guys mentioned, with fluctuating temps that allow cooler night time lows, such issues don't occur. Thanks.

Will

I have often wondered the same thing. I have kept my clutches in my snake room, which fluctuates greatly throughout the day(always below 80). I have had power outages too that caused cooler temps for days, and have never had a kink or any abnormality. I have also never used an incubator, which can be prone to spikes or constant temps. I would be interested to see if there has been any study on eggs from incubators vrs eggs kept at room temp, and possible problems that are associated with each. Maybe some incubators contribute? Or maybe its something like to much inbreeding and genetics. Would be interesting to see some feedback from others experiences.

Ok, I am starting to feel old. Why you ask, Please don't ask!
Ok, this was a problem even back in the early seventies.
The problem is, there are many causes. Including poor incubation.
Also, improper temps start long before an incubator. Which leads to the start.
A quote from another old, old, old great keeper, Ernie Wagner, weak neonates, weak adults. The key is, the adults. I will move on as this subject could also take many posts.
Next, Ernie did many experiments in the old days, For a period of time he promoted B-3 shots(kinda a guess on the exact vitamin) and it worked until he produced neonates that looked like a saw blade, hundreds of kinks. So diet is also a SUSPECT.
Next is understanding egg and embryo development. If you look at it, outside our prejudiced brains. Snakes, develop in eggs, in a rolled up fashion, not in a coiled up fashion. Which means, their bones are not fully calcified. They are soft. It takes about a week for them to harden up. During this time, the hatchlings should not be handled. Once they "harden up" then normal handling can take place. Consider, its individual, The weaker individuals are the ones that can have problems when handled too soon. The problems are kinking.
Kinking and deformities are to different problems. This too can take many many posts.
Theres a point to what many of you said, overheating is not good for eggs or adults. The problem is, if it does not kill adults, its what? OK. Which means, eggs tell you whats wrong, the adults do not, unless they perish.
A final thought, adults, eggs and neonates, all benefit from hot and cold, all see that normally in nature. The problem is captivity is, we humans, like to quantify, average, and offer the least choice as possible. While we can force snakes to do that, they do tell us we are wrong from time to time.

Great question, and all great replies, I have learned alot.

I know someone who tried to assist a hatchling to shed, and in the process caused a few kinks. Hatchling snakes should probably not be tightly restrained in hand for at least a week after hatching. That is advice we all can follow.

Some people have dropped snake eggs onto the floor. I know of 2 people who dropped an egg box onto the floor from at least 3 ft up, with eggs rolling out onto the floor, and this happening near full term in one of the occurrences. The eggs hatched with healthy babies in both cases. I doubt that this kind of egg trauma is an issue.

I had a pet ferret take my cornsnake eggs and hide them in the couch. This was many years ago. I found the eggs, most had tooth holes in them, and they hatched. healthy eggs are tuff.

Dan Johnson(a very successful grayband breeder) noted his wild caught alterna typically produced 100% fertility, 100% hatch rate and no kinks or deformities for the first few years. After that the fertility and hatch rates began to decline and kinks and deformities began to appear, this from the exact same specimens that had formerly perfect performance. He noted that wild specimens regularly eat lizards but captives usually only eat mice so he began to feed them lizards. Once he did that he says they returned to nearly perfect fertility and hatch rates.

Other grayband breeders I've talked to have said that drier incubation medium and increased airflow to the eggs led to fewer kinks and better hatch rates.

I have seen kinked babies result from both related and unrelated pairings of alterna, including wild-caught unrelated pairings. I tend to think that it is more often from diet and environment, rather than from inbreeding but I suppose inbreeding still can't be completely ruled out.

I also think it depends on the species to, graybands are notorious for kinks and full term dead in egg but I hardly ever see it in other species.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

As an old time Greyband breeder, I did not experience that.
Whats missing in your story is temps. I do not disagee with WC's being stronger, I do with why.
In captivity we average to a point of insanity. This temp, that temp, etc. In nature, they use a wide range of temps.
Whats important is, what these temps do. They use different temps for REAL reasons. We understand things in the exact. 82.34553240F, the animals use what FEELS RIGHT, at the time. And are adjusting, all the time.
I also think, being stuffed in a box, is mentally and behaviorally minimizing. Which effects their biology.
My story from the late sixties, when my friend came by on his way to west texas, he caught a gravid Black coachwhip. It laid eggs in the bag, in the car. He set them up and kept them in the car for a month of collecting. He then came back dropped them off with me and they hatched and all the neonates were strong and healthy. So if you have ever been in car in AZ. and West Texas in June and July. It makes the story funny.

Frank I tend to agree with you about temps. Obviously because you tried it and it worked but it also makes sense to me that them being able to regulate temps to the full capacity they experience in the wild would have a positive effect on their metabolism.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

The problem is, we make all manner of assumptions, some of which do have merit and we make them with half a deck of cards. We narrow their options, and say, that is what they do. Its not that its totally wrong, its what they do with narrowed options.
I bred greybands for decades and fed them mice most of that time and did not have problems. In fact, one year, I lived in New Orleans(working on the zoo) I could not find mice, so I fed them chicken gizzards, and hearts and stuff. And they ate that and reproduced well with strong neonates. Now sure how that would work over several years.
Speaking of diets, there's this in situ herp page, where this fella shows copperheads, commonly consuming cicadas, not baby copperheads, adults climbing up and eating them. Hows them apples?

Speaking of diets, there's this in situ herp page, where this fella shows copperheads, commonly consuming cicadas, not baby copperheads, adults climbing up and eating them. Hows them apples?

NO Shat! Really! No wonder so many copperheads where I live. The forrest around my yard is like a enormous concert of cicadas.

I just find it amazing that copperheads eat cicadas. That is a new one for me.

Any chance of finding that video or pics and posting them here or providing a link.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

scroll down until you see copperheads climbing small trees. He also post pics of them actually consuming cicadas.
Link