Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Below, is a pic of a clutch that a female laid this morning. She double clutched and I was delighted with the size of this clutch.
She laid 12 days after shed, uneventfully and the vascular system was visible in some of the eggs.
I have raised hundreds of hognose eggs and all clutches had vascular structures when they were laid (including those that laid within 5 days)and I have a 95-98% healthy hatch rate.
Clearly, they are not being affected by a lack of oxygen and it is a non-issue - otherwise some clutches or at least some eggs would die.
Beyond the observable, all else is speculation.

Congrats, wonderful clutch. I still have no idea what you are complaining about. First and foremost, if your happy, who cares what the numbers are, and if you have a good hatchrate, its all good.
My question is, how many days after the shed are the nestings where the females you had hold an egg or more?
To me, your nesting looks great so I have no idea why its taking so long with the possible exception of temps. What are they in the nest?
I hope you understand this, If your eggs are fine and your females are fine, then your setup works for you. Keep posting I do not get tired of good nestings.

I'm not complaining - on the contrary, quite delighted!

"who cares what the numbers are".
I consider the numbers to be useful information, it's part of the learning process.

"To me, your nesting looks great so I have no idea why its taking so long with the possible exception of temps."

I don't view it as "so long" - with a 95 - 99% success rate over hundreds of eggs, I believe it's normal.

Congrats Johnny. Looks good to me. Perfect clutch

Thanks
I was very fortunate this year with some nice double clutches.

I am still not sure what you are trying to prove or disprove. It is silly to think that eggs should be laid with a fully formed vascular system. This is not speculation. It is fact Jonny. They should not have a vascular system when deposited. The very reason for the vascular system is to collect oxygen. Why would that need to form while still inside the female. The thing is, I have comparisons while all you have is one thing you constantly see because you do not change methods. Your observation are fine but the conclusions you come to are pretty funny coming from someone who has only been breeding egg layers for 3 seasons. I have studied this topic in depth and applied it for years. Long before you even knew what a hognose was. Every single time a female is offered porper nesting and lays her eggs within 5 days of prelay, the eggs do not have a vascular system. When females are not offered proper nesting, the female takes far longer to lay and the eggs have a vascular system. There is a trend Jonny. I am also a bit skeptical of you supposed hatch rate. How are you getting your numbers? Anything documented to support your claims? I only ask because everyone claims to have the same hatch rate and it is complete BS in most cases. Not saying that you are BS-ing, just that I have heard the same claim hundreds of times. Also, how many hatchlings are produced that never take off? Not trying to be a jerk, just put your money where your mouth is.

I have no interest in trying to convince someone who doesn't believe me.

But the only people you have to convince are the ones who don't believe you Jonny. Anyway, that's fine, I know you do not have anything that documents your claims. No one ever does. But you can answer a few simple questions. Does your female pace around her enclosure 24 to 48 before laying her eggs? Since you have started breeding hogs, how many dead in eggs have you had? How many have hatched and died shortly after? Have every single one of the snakes you produced made it to adulthood? Do you cut eggs to help hatchlings like ball python breeders do?

You posted wonderful pics of really good clutchs, Its not about believing your results. As Gregg mentioned, its about your conclusions, You do one thing, then make conclusions on something else. Your conclusions are NOT in context with your wonderful hog breeding.
I am result based, the numbers are something that follows results. Which means, I could careless what the numbers are or are suppose to be. If the results are superior. Your stated results appear to be superior. No problem.
Yet you make conclusions on something else, I ask real questions as to why it could take so long, like what are the nesting temps, and you ignore the questions. But your pics are wonderful in any case.
Whats interesting is, I received the same results as Gregg, my axanthic kennerlyi laid in 3 to 5 days and the eggs developed a vascular system aprox a week after laying. The real advantage was the female has fed daily since she laid and has copulated again. My guess is, its hotter here, Tomorrow it's suppose to be 111F and humid. So everything is fast with reptiles. The heat also contributes to infertility. That's my task, keep the heat down and the times and numbers up.
So its not about believing you, you have proved your doing well. But have not done nothing to support the context of your conclusions. holding eggs, egg binding, etc. You also mentioned that you have females hold the last egg and you palpate them out. Sir, that's not a good thing. Now I have to ask, is it possible that's a product of holding eggs 12 days or more? Congrats

I had just one female retain an egg this year.
She laid her eggs 4 days after prelay shed and her eggs had vascular veins showing right away.

She also went on to double clutch.

Jonny, you just said in a previous post that you do not get the same results as me when it comes to time between prelay and deposition. The clutch being laid within 5 days would indeed fall into my results. And can you answer the questions I asked in my last post?

Hi Gregg,

Remember, the ideas you are putting forth are going against about 40 years of entrenched herp dogma. Up until recently, folks tossed eggs that were layed without vascularization. You are probably like me and came to this reality from experience with turtles and lizards first. However, what you and Frank are describing is entirely foreign to most snake only keepers. Anyway, I completely agree with you: the earlier eggs are deposited, the less stress the female endures, which not only results in greater longevity for her, but stronger babies.

Thanks.

Will

How are you measuring these claims? What real data do you have that proves it? Do you have a control group in which you are measuring them against?

I would love to see it.

What proof do you have that he's wrong, I would love to see that. Yes, you show us, how he is wrong. Please. Not just saying so, you prove it. Thank you

I have all the data I need to make such claims. I have the experience of seeing it happen in my own collection. I have witnessed many good nesting progressions and many not so good ones. I have also been fortunate to experience some great nestings and their outcomes on both mom and the babies. That is all the data I need, man. Interestingly, the results are similar to those that Gregg, Frank and others have reported, and it is the cumulative reports that have real value for others to utilize or not.

Will

"the earlier eggs are deposited, the less stress the female endures, which not only results in greater longevity for her, but stronger babies."

So then it's just anecdotal evidence. Shame you don't have hard data to support it. I would have enjoyed reading it.

Nearly all of the advances in herpetoculture the past 50 years are based upon anecdotal observations. Most of them made by keepers observing and refining their husbandry within their private collections. But this does not invalidate anecdotal evidence.

This is a husbandry forum, This is how information is made available, from person to person, based on ACTUAL experience KEEPING these animals. HUSBANDRY
Your posts are ARGUMENTATIVE and are based on you being a troll(look it up) and attempting to cause FLAME wars(again look it up)
All this does is make you appear like snake food, a pinkie if you will.

The hognose snake is a type of colubrid snake characterized by an upturned snout which aids in digging in sandy soils by using a sweeping, side to side motion. They are notorious for playing dead when threatened.

Here you may post messages or questions pertaining to all aspects and issues regarding the keeping, breeding, health, and conservation of all Hognose Snakes.
There is nothing in the mission statement that requires anyone to scientifically prove anything.
You have no interest in hognose, your only interest here is to disparage others,dis·par·age verb \di-ˈsper-ij, -ˈspa-rij\
: to describe (someone or something) as unimportant, weak, bad, etc.
dis·par·ageddis·par·ag·ing
Full Definition of DISPARAGE
transitive verb
1: to lower in rank or reputation : degrade
2: to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about
Your goal is not to further the understanding, instead, disparage, and cast doubt on anyone who has something to add to this forum(That's different then your limited understanding)
Instead, please offer imperativeim·per·a·tive
adjective: imperative
1. of vital importance; crucial.
"immediate action was imperative"
2. giving an authoritative command; peremptory.
"the bell pealed again, a final imperative call"
peremptory, commanding, imperious, authoritative, masterful, dictatorial, magisterial, assertive, firm, insistent data based on your experience that Will, Gregg or I, are not accurate in our reports. Thank you and man this is fun

Why do you insist on hijacking every post and every thread with your endless insanity FR?

Why do you? Your hijacking my cage thread. With your insane accusations based of a twisted set of delusions, that exists only in your head.
If you actually want attention, do something positive, all this attempting to bring others down is Childish non sense.
Please understand, the more you screw with me, the more I will screw with you. And it has nothing to do with hognose or husbandry.
Your first premise of thinking that I know stuff is in error, as a person of science, I question, those questions reveal something, or not. Its not about knowing, If I knew all there is to know, I wouldn't have to test different nesting, substrates, temps etc. I test, because I do not know. You may benefit if you stop thinking I know everything. You would have a better approach if you accuse me of doing things. I am always doing something. I can't stop myself.
Also, Your so afraid that these tests will come up with something good, something better then, and will show you in poor lite to others. Guess what, it surely will and not because I am smart, superior, or better then anyone. It will because you do not do anything. All you have to do is, DO SOMETHING. In the end, you will lose. Again, not because of me, but because of your own fears. I am not afraid to fail, or lose. I will keep trying to express more from these interesting snakes.
Please understand, I am a student of ethology, which is related to psychology. In that, your one interesting subject. Which I guess explains your original question of why.