Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have spoken to two more breeders, since yesterday, about this topic of the development of the vascular system in the embryo.
They both have plenty of reptile experience and have been breeding several types of snakes, for many years.
They both told me the same thing, that while typically one doesn't candle reptile eggs till a few days after they're laid, because the vascular system hasn't started developing, they have observed that hognose eggs almost always display clear vascular development as soon as they're laid. That is very interesting!
Incidentally, one of the breeders keeps his hogs in 3 foot enclosures, which is probably more than most of us do.
Hognose eggs are also quite different in texture and appearance,from many other snake eggs, when they are laid.
They seem to be truly unique snakes.

I got the size wrong.
His enclosures are 4 foot long x 2 foot wide x 1.5 foot high.

Damn - I wish I had room to keep all my hogs like that!

And again you seem to leave out important details that are relevant to the topic. What is his nesting option and how long from prelay does his females lay eggs? And what does the size of the cage have to do with proper nesting Jonny? Again, you a looking at one type of result and disregarding mine and other people who do things how I do with the nesting.

You are right with one thing. Hog are unique and I find it funny how most keepers and breeders. keep them the exact same way they keep their other snakes.

This is what is confusing to me, And its not against anyone, it is just what it is.
Caracal has some odd approach to this conversation. He keeps saying, I spoke to this or that person and they said this or that. He does not use names, so no one can check and see for themselves. This is heresay, as no names, no details are given.
I took spend the weekend of the 4th of July, talking to and herping with a BIG TIME BREEDER, he produces aprox 11,000 colubrids a year. He is the originater and owner of this company. I asked if they produced hogs, he said yes, both westerns and kennerlyi. So I asked nesting details. He said they put a nesting box in the cage. I asked at what time, he said, I don't know. Then he said, his hognose were inconsistent. They get some but not like other colubrids which produce like rodents. They keep them in the same setup and conditions, but do not respond nearly as well as KINGS AND CORNS. No other details were given.
Which like Caracals heresay, is meaningless to this conversation. Unless they are doing exactly what we are talking about, their information is useless. The exact point is, my good friend simply did not care about deep nesting etc. They either fit into what they do, or they will put something else in those cages.
The point of this forum is, we are lucky enough to get information from the horses mouth. In this case, Gregg is a big time hog breeder and he says one thing. With my experience with other species, I totally agree with Gregg and from my recent experience, my axanthic laid at most likely the third day, but I did not dig them up until the 5th day. There was no vascular development when laid. Which is consistant with all other colubrids I produced over the last 50 years.
The advantage of this forum is, we all can tell exactly what our experiences are. So far, its 2 to 1. pt1

Two folks have observed hognose eggs when laid under five days from the pre-egg laying shed, that did not have vascular development. One person, Cacacal says one of his did have vascular development when laid within the five day time period.
Next would be, how many others, have observed anything to help this conversation?
My friend Dennis at our local reptile store, has hogs and had nesting problems and I told him about deep nesting. He Tried it. His hog laid the next day after it shed. He dug her up and she fed like crazy. His only concern was, She did not come up, she went down. He was only checking to see what she was doing the day after the shed and found a cave with eggs in it. He did not candle the eggs and they are incubating now. Dennis's information is also heresay to this conversation, but is a NOTE, as is those that Caracal mentions.
This is important, nothing done here is purely scientific and could not be published in a paper that ends in a conclusion. But, there are lots and lots of information what could be published as notes. Notes are important. Notes are what is rare in publishing, as researchers cannot make a name or achieve a degree, for themselves by publishing notes. Notes are needed to improve the data base for publications. Researchers require notes.
So NOTED, caracals observations, vs. Gregg and mines. Any more real notes out there? if not, it gives all of us something to look into next year and in the years to come. end pt2

I agree with a lot of what you wrote in part 2.
It certainly would be very beneficial if more people contributed information.

Gregg asks for details, which is important, but details are not so important if we can quantify these observations. That is, if we came together and accumulated this information, vascular development based on days from the shed. Exact temps and such are not needed. Not at first.
Once we see a pattern of those that have vascular development opposed to those that do not, we can then question such things as temps, nesting quality, and of course time from shed, then more importantly, time from ovulation(if different then from the shed)etc.
Now to change the subject. Whats wrong with some on this forum, in my opinion. Caracal and others do this, they immediately form conclusions based on notes and limited data. Or try to form conclusions way to early in the process.
Like Gregg keeps mentioning, in order to understand the process, you have to include the otherside in your testing. Or as many sides(approaches) as you can.
As Gregg mentions, Caracal keeps doing what he's doing, which is wonderful, and then applying that to something else. So again, Caracal, if you want to understand that something else, you need to do something different. I am testing all manner of materials and approaches, and of course get ridiculed for doing that. That goes with the territory. I have pioneered many herp related subjects, and I have done so for a few good reasons. One is, you cannot be influenced by the mainstay standards, as they will only hold you back, and two is, you cannot be afraid to fail. Testing means, your going to fail. In the case of these snakes, all you have to keep in mind is, stop the testing and return to normal before it hurts the animal. In this case, its even less dangerous, I offer what is "normal" to keepers, then test options, the animals can then do what they are designed to do, make their own choice. If they use something, keep going, if they don't, move to another choice. Its easy, safe and fun.