Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just spoke to another breeder, this afternoon...

I am not trying to convince people to believe me - nobody has to.
Some people know me and do trust that I'm an honest person.

Generally, I think, as grown-ups we all sort through what we read online and try to make a determination as to what sounds authentic, valid or reasonable.

This forum is not a court of law.
We are all entitled to present ideas and those who read them should choose what they want to do with them.
There is no reason for aggressive responses or cheap personal attacks.

In that vein, I will "note" that again this afternoon I asked another breeder, who we all know and who most of us respect, about his experiences.
Again , he told me he that all his hogs lay between 7 and 12 days after pre-lay shed and that all the clutches have some eggs that clearly display a vascular system.
I present the feedback he gave me, fully cognizant of the fact that I haven't provided all the info that Gregg and FR would like to know.
My job isn't to answer the questions that they want answering to help buttress their theory. That's their job!!
I don't have to present data or "notes" according to someone else's terms.
Whoever reads my posts can choose what they want to do with the info.
The only reason I don't say the names of the breeders is because they all said exactly the same thing:
The forum is too political and unpleasant and they avoid it.

I am not here to answer someone else's questions, unless I feel it has a constructive purpose and that they talk to me respectfully, in which case I will respond in kind.
I will certainly not respond to someone who engages in personal attacks as a strategy for debate.
I came to this forum to share and exchange ideas with fair-minded people, not to have an aggressive debate with people who have already decided they have all the answers.

Sir, you are missing the point, and I believe you. Believing you is not the point. If you do the same thing, you should expect the same results. You do not that saying, don't you? You know, doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.(its a common saying, I did not make it up)
I and I am sure, Gregg believes you. The reason I brought the whole thing up is most people are doing the same thing and thinking its normal. It IS NORMAL for folks doing the simplest possible nesting. But not normal for folks who want more from keeping. In the field, females move to KNOWN nesting sites in the fall, and stay there in the spring, And nest in known areas where historically theres the BEST conditions for survival.
To think its about hatching eggs is very naïve. They place their eggs in the material the neonates can survive in. Its a major part of why they nest like they do.
To put it another way, I will bet you one thousand dollars(u.s.) you can go to hognose habitat, and set your and their(your breeder friends) nesting boxes around and not one hog would voluntarily lay eggs in them. There is reason for that, what is it?

Your post had no connection to what I wrote.

its connected to YOU, and what your wrote, in the post and the past.

To squash this. Has anyone observed hogs in th wild laying eggs and seeing if they have any vascular systems developed. This will put this to rest forever. Until then everything is speculation. Not to put this on anyone's shoulders but frank u seem to be in the field the most where there is a high concentration of westerns/Mexicans. This would be ground breaking information that the hog community could benefit from. Could use info of course from many females to test this hypothesis.

Hi Jonrice, I had several opportunities to dig up recently laid eggs, but I could not get myself to interfere with nesting. Cacacals discussion about vascular development is with Gregg. I have studied this, as well as Gregg, and Gregg is right, Egg deposited close to fertilization, have no vascular system. This is true, and you can do it. If you or anyone would look, or want to look, it becomes very easy to understand and common sense. The size of the embryo is directly related to fertilization, in colubrids. Some species utilize diapause. Which is delayed or slowed development. This is normally a tactic to time hatching at optimal times. Like the wet season. Hogs do not utilize diapause. Fertilization occurs near the time of shedding.
Gregg is also right about the greater the development, the more
support is required from the female. Hognose do not appear to have the ability to hold eggs for extended periods. With hogs here, egg laying occurs at just before the start of the monsoon season, end of june beginning of july. There are many reasons for this, one, the earth is bone dry up until the rains start, and two. Other herps are also laying at this time, both lizards and toads. The hatchling hogs must hatch at the time of abundant prey the size they can consume. Their natural reproductive approach is all about timing and is CRICTICAL. No neonate lizards or toadlets, no hognose survival. Its simple and common knowledge.
The actual time they can hold the eggs is variable, in nature, they can control development by picking cooler temps. In most cases, we have to use captivity to as a comparison. In this case, wild hogs, and judge the effect and weight loss. Wild hogs do not show any negative effects from nesting, No neck mass loss, no excess water loss, only the loss of internal body fat.
In captivity, how long they can hold the eggs is based on temps. Just like in nature.pt1

So to sit an argue about days, is silly and a divergence to understanding what's going on. Greggs right, and Caracal must be using low(normal) temps. Temps have a wide range of normal.
There is no question, the faster a female gets back to work, the better. In nature, these times of feeding and breeding are short. Blooms of abundant prey, are quickly utilized by competition. In nature, a female, only requires aprox, 8 good meals a year. Neonates and growups do require more.
Unlike Gregg, I said, over and over, If caracal is happy, and his animals are ok, then all is good. I could careless about vascular development. But again, under other conditions, advanced vascular development, does indeed Kill embryos when held inside the female to long. They do absorb water as they grow, this can cause dehydration to the female, and when the embryos perish inside the female, it indeed causes infection and egg binding. The point is, for those that ARE having problems, there are methods to prevent egg binding, and as Gregg correctly states, methods to improve neonate health and strength. Also, Gregg and I started this conversation STATING, there are many reasons for egg binding, which we failed to explain, THAT MEANS NOT ONE. Deep nesting, is a method to cure or address several of those problems. It is not the only cause or the only cure. Its a good start. pt 2

While he is doing a great job with his hogs, his problem is not snake related. How or why he thinks everything said is aimed at him is an issue not related to snake husbandry. On this forum, he has a confidence issue.
I have to say this, and it does not need to be said. When my captives are doing great, big clutches, double clutching or more, growing fast and strong, I could careless what any of you, or the any author or any big time breeder say. And I could careless what I say or think. I go with it. They the snakes TEACH me, I do not teach them.
In Caracals case, he has two issues, as far as I can see, one is how long it takes his females to deposit eggs, and, Egg retention, that requires palpation to remove. The amount of days, does not matter as long as his animals and eggs are fine, but retaining eggs does matter. That he rationalizes it does not, is on him. Naturally any female that retains eggs, is erased from existence.
The point is, if those females of his have more problems in the future, perish from reproductive issues, he will be aware of what caused it. Why folks fight tooth and claw over information, they do not have to use, own, utilize, is totally beyond me. Why they think needling, twisting and turning, all in an effort to find a weak spot, is not about snakes, its all about WINNING a debate, which sadly the snakes then become a tool for human ego.
To answer your question, Both Gregg and I have observed eggs deposited within the five day mark and they have Zero vascular development, next year, or next clutch, I will take pics and that back that up. Thank you for this conversation.

"Egg retention, that requires palpation to remove. The amount of days, does not matter as long as his animals and eggs are fine, but retaining eggs does matter. That he rationalizes it does not, is on him."

Like I said, I had this happen to one snake this year.
She laid 4 days after shed.
Nobody said it doesn't matter.
Unfortunately, every breeder experiences this occasionally.