Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have one pair of hogs in my collection. I collected the male in 2009 and the female in 2011 from Santa Cruz Co., AZ. I like these animals due to their rarity in collections as most AZ Hogs come from Cochise Co., and the darker colors they present from this locality compared to others.

This year I put them together on 3/26 and did not observe any breeding behavior, I was fine with that and separated them. In the weeks following I noticed the female swelling and felt she did in fact breed. I treat my Hogs like most of my snakes which are kept in a 32qt sweater box in a rack with aspen as bedding. She shed on 5/24 and I put in a plastic shoe box with 4 inches of moist vermiculite. She immediately went to the bottom of the nest box and stayed there. On 5/31 she laid 12 good eggs

The eggs were incubated at 84 degrees. On 7/24 they started pipping.

Looks like a lll 12 were going to hatch.

I've only breed hogs once and those were Plains Hogs back in 1991. One thing I found unique is many of them were shedding as they were coming out of the egg which happened in 91 as well.

All 12 hatched and the ones that haven't shed are doing so now.

After a little break from herps this was very exciting to me and brought back feelings about herps I haven't had in awhile. I'm looking forward to my re-ignited interest again. Hope you guys like this post as I wanted to share my experiences.

Paul Lynum

Paul, did she lay all the eggs on the bottom of the container? Did she surface after laying? One last question, why 84 and not 80? Seems most ppl use 80 for the incubation temp...just curious...

Great photos thanks for sharing!

Hi Austin, please try and understand this, You and others seem to be driven by what "others" do. And without question, your welome to do that. But other folks and I, have done what we do for a very long time and it at times differs from what you hear. Interesting part is, its not a problem. Like Paul, around here, the only place cooler then 85F is in my fridge. So mid to high 80's is and has been used very successfully for decades. So you question us, We question you. funny thing is, growing up in SoCal, we commonly hatched colubrid eggs at room temps, in the low to mid seventies.
To me, what makes me the bad guy to some of you is, I do not follow the same sources as you. Its as simple as this, at this time of year, where the hogs occur, theres nowhere to nest that is not in the mid eighties or above.
Heres more for you, in nature and in my outdoor cages, herp eggs commonly are underwater for hours, even days and still hatch. The reality is, all our methods are wrong compared to nature. There, they can get really hot, and go underwater and get really cold and still hatch. Even over winter. In captivity, not so much.
You see, my teacher is nature, and yours seems to be what "others" do. Which is fine for you. But please do not make me go by what others do. Let me follow the wonders of nature. Which hognose are by the way.

Also what were the weights when hatched if known?

Good stuff,Paul. Interesting to know your kennerlyi are from Santa Cruz CO. Would that be considered a range extension? Are they rare there? Congrats on the clutch.

reako45 = Darren Wilson

Hi Darren, they at one time were regular, in that area, and they occur even farther west of where Paul found those. Hopefully that area will get consistant rain and they appear more commonly. I met an old lady(older then I) and she told me really cool stories of Spoon noses, that's what she calls them. A really outa hand lady of the old west, I was sleeping in my truck mid day, waiting for the afternoon run, when she woke me up to see if I was all right and not a bad guy.
Paul likes edge of range herping it appears. Oddly they also occur in Pima co. as well. Which is rare, but no one looks for them.
The range maps, have kennerlyi, occurring west of Nogales. Which must be in error. or maybe in Mex. west of Nogales, so they filled in the dots. I observed a few Santa Cruz co. individuals last year, but so far, not this year, I am hoping for rain, which did happen last night. Hope it wakes up the areas. They are blue holes. Whats a blue hole?

Congrats, great job.

Good morning, Austin. She laid them at the bottom of the cage and I left the eggs with her for at least 24 hours until I took them out. I wiped off the vermiculite from them so I could see better how the eggs were doing as time went on. She came up right after I took the eggs out looking for food and I fed her good. She loves to eat lol. She did not go back in the box after that and I took it out. 84 degrees is what my snake room is naturally Spring through Fall. I have to admit I didn't start looking at what other people were doing with their Hogs until about a week ago when I started looking at this forum. I've been breeding snakes for 27 years, produced somewhere over 10,000 offspring and have never weighed eggs. I haven't got that technical yet. I'm a field guy and been way too technical with that. That's enough for me lol. But I'm curious why do you weigh the eggs?

Reako, FR is right. Santa Cruz is not a range extension though with the harsh drought AZ has been experiencing for the past 20 years it's putting a serious hurting on many animals. The western range appears to be reseeding. Years ago Hogs from this area were more more easier to come by. But, not as easy as in some Cochise localities. In 2000 you could find on average 3 per day at this location were these animals came from. By 2010 it would be 1 if your were lucky. Now it takes many trips to see one. A friend of mine lives in the vicinity and he would see them infrequently while doing errands. For the past 4 years he has not seen any. Though I do love end of range hunting (Heck I like all hunting!) I like herping here because it's some of the most beautiful country I've ever been.

Thanks for the input guys. This looks like a great forum to learn lots. Just in my short time here I've been blown away buy your experiences and methods.

Thanks again.

PL

FR mentioned Pima Co as part of their range. 24 years ago when I started herping this area hogs were spoken of by locales and herpers who had years of experience in the vicinity. Pima Co hogs then weren't common but some were found every year. Times have changed. I now never hear of locales or herpers finding them and haven't for years. I've never seen one and figured I would by now with all the time I've spent down there. This just my experience though. FR could add more to this if you guys are interested in the subject. He has much more experience and time invested in this area than I do.

PL

What your saying is true, but, snake species during unsupportive conditions, often stay underground for years, even decades. To me roads,are not a good tool for understanding snakes, roads are a tool for finding them, for sure.
The question is, did they die off, or are they underground.
I can say, I observed neonate hogs at both Santa Cruz co. sites. which means, they are reproductive. Which is a good thing.
I personally know and saw a hog from Pima co. I also heard reports from Pinal county. And in a logical local. But no animals or pics from there.
I would like to see some academic herpers work on Hogs and remove them from colubridae. Best wishes and congrats again

Why would you say they should be removed from colubridae? It seems like colubridae is a catch all.

It's cool you say that because there are vipers in africa that look just like a harmless water snake.

Yes indeed colubridae is a catchall, and it needs to catch less. I imagine, all the snakes are going to be redone as MtDna will change all this stuff. So no need to go on and on.
Its fairly obvious that hogs are different in many ways from Rats and kings, not just looks, but also reproductively as well. And of course behaviorally.
Of course, I have nothing to do with taxonomy. I like stuff that's solid like behavior. Wait, that's worse then taxonomy.

Paul, your secret road, had a large fire last winter on top of being dry, and it is beautiful country.
about common or not, its all about habitat. Historically, hognose are sandy soil burrowers, in their habitat they dominate, they like all species that occur in the habitat they are designed for. In other marginal habitats, they do not have a design advantage and must compete with other species, on the other species terms. Most of the Santa Cruz counties locals are hard packed soil, which they are not designed for. So they do not dominate over such generalized species as gophersnakes etc. Their advantage is simple, in preferred habitat, hogs have the advantage of making their own holes. In hard packed, they are forced to use holes. which any snake species can do. Like most species, they can exist in a number of different habitats, just some more successfully then others. Not unlike the kings you seek. Best wishes

Hi Frank,

I was unaware that area had a burn through it. I haven't been there in awhile and now I'm curious. Next time I'm working in Sierra Vista I'll stop by and take a look. I agree with you on how they use the soil where they occur wether it be sand or hard packed.

Also, you are very right about driving vs field work on foot. I have not looked for Hogs on foot only on road. My knowledge of what they do is very limited. I know the best times to find them out crawling and I take the lazy approach to finding them by driving. If they were found where the saxicolis lampros were I probally be a pro in the field with hogs haha.

I have lots to learn on them. Thanks for your imput everyone.

PL

Whats funny is, in the areas where there are hogs, both Cochise and SCC, there are lots of getula and in SCC, pyros and hogs overlap. They may also overlap in Cochise c. too. Pyros have been seen by the portal store, as have hogs.
Anyway, both are great fun. hogs are like a fossorial coachwhip. Only slower. OK a short fat coachwhip, wait, Hogs use about the same temp range, other then that, nothing like them.

Hi Paul, glad to see another person on the forum....it's refreshing to have a conversation with someone without being attacked or butting in with an opinion not warranted. As I directed the questions at you and not anyone else, I value your input. Needless to say most ppl I talk to stay away from here because of being harassed by the KS Stalker....as I'm sure you will get to know as well...sad but true!

To your question "But I'm curious why do you weigh the eggs?" reason I ask that is because there seems to be a coalition with some breeders that temps seem to play a part in the size of the newborns. For example, eggs that are incubated at lower temps seem to have larger size babies compared to the higher temp ones.....that's pretty much why I was interested in knowing the weights since you already provided the temp.

A friend of mine also commented on your clutch...he suggested if your not already doing this....to maybe keep your babies in a moist substrate until after their first shed....it looked like some of your little ones were a bit dry and having some problems with their shed...but other than that they looked very cool!

Hi Austin,

Thanks for explaining the measuring of eggs. That's pretty interesting. With myself being more of a mountain kingsnake guy I understand what incubation temps can to to alter the snake not so much in size but color and pattern. Think I'll look into weighing scales for next year.

The baby snakes actually were just put on that surface to get a pic. I keep them all on moist aspen to help aid with their sheds and comfort. They spend all their time buried.

These hatchlings have sparked my intertest and I came to this forum to check things out and learn. I hope no drama arises for this and I won't take part of any. Looking forward to great topics and discusions.

PL

Hey Paul,

I understand and agree completely....I don't respond to comments from the Stalker, so it's not a big deal. The drama on this site gets intense and not worth my time to even bother....but I do take many conversations private to avoid conflict. So if it persists i'll just email you like the others to avoid hostile thread jacking!