Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My biggest surprise of the year.

May or may not be a Stillwater Hybino, time will tell.

More (very) interesting stuff coming soon.

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

That looks like a ghost bull that gets its hypo gene from the stillwater line. When mixed with the whitesides, the stillwater line causes the eyes to be red even though it's not an albino. Jonel Lopez had this happen several years ago as well. I've made these for the last two years now and am calling them "fire-eye" ghosts to differentiate them from the standard black eyed form (generic hypo whiteside). There are a couple of people that might be lurking on this forum that saw them at Daytona a couple weeks ago as I brought two pairs with me to the show.

Aside from the eye color, they are very different phenotypically from a standard ghost in that the colors have lots of pastels as they mature and every one that I've produced has been bald (no head pattern at all).

I'm curious about the "tiger" portion of your description. (Please don't take this the wrong way. Not trying to be rude, just wanting to clarify). K.J. Lodrigue and Don Soderberg were working with bullsnakes four or five years ago that had thin patterns and greatly exagerated saddle counts. These are what I know as Tiger bulls. I have produced a couple myself over the last couple of years and the saddle counts are insane (see pic of one of lasts years animals below). Is your animal related to this line? I'd love to hear about the pairing used to make your great looking animal.

Regardless, your animal is fantastic! Congrats on that beauty!

Take care.

I haven't taken pictures since last year, but here's a pic showing a portion of a clutch that had a fire-eye in it. They are spectacular animals and you're going to love watching yours grow up!

Those are some awesome animals gentlemen! That's pretty cool about the Stillwater white side ghost! Goes to show pits have just as much potential as other animals and what ppl with good taste can do with them!

Thanx!

But Whitesided isn't part of the equation.

I'm quite sure about that.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

You're kidding?!?!?!?!? There's no whiteside there? That's AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm interested in seeing some updated pictures of the possible double homozygous hypo(s)...as to Herman's awesome reds,congrats!!! They look great!

No problem, at all. There’s a little story behind this whole Tiger thing, so please allow me.

So like four years ago, I purchased this magnificent looking subadult pair of Kingsville Red Bulls. The previous owner had obtained them two years earlier at Snakeday (Houten, The Netherlands) as (just) Kingsville Red Bulls, without mention of any additives to this (basic) formula. And this was about all the guy knew, as he seemed to be completely unaware of anything being particularly special or interesting about this awesome pair of Bulls. Actually, so was I, as I had no knowledge of (the existence of) Tiger Bulls whatsoever, at the time.

However, I still remember the first thought which came to mind when I first saw them: “Tiger”. Just take a look at these pictures (taken by the previous owner), and you’ll understand why.

Anyway, I didn’t even give it that much thought at first, until I stumbled upon this “Tiger” morph as produced by KJUN. The KJUN site only linked to this one picture, displaying a pair of juveniles. There were some obvious differences (the much higher blotch count being one of them), but other than that these little Bulls seemed quite similar to my mine.

So I began to wonder if, - maybe, just maybe -, my pair of Kingsvilles could actually be “Tiger” morphs too. As it turned out, I was both right and wrong about that. I will elaborate on this later.

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

The original pair of Kingsvilles.

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=396057&cpage=0&size=big
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=396056&cpage=0&size=big
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Finally figured it out, LOL.

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Off course, the surest way to either prove or falsify this possibility, is by outcrossing them to specimens of an unrelated lineage. And this is where the story got redirected into interesting and unexpected territories, way beyond my imagination, and certainly way beyond my intentions. The Albino Tiger Bull as pictured above, being just one out of many pleasant surprises. Again, I will elaborate on this later.

You see, this guy also offered me this very nice subadult pair of extreme yellow Hypo Bulls. He couldn’t tell me which kind of Hypo, as he wasn’t aware of the existence of several (well, at least two) distinct Hypo strains to begin with. As this pair resembled the Stillwater Hypo reasonable enough, and looked quite different from the (more commonly available) Trumbower Hypo, to me the former possibility seemed to be the most plausible one.

Well, as it turned out, I was right about that too. But again, not entirely right.

Anyway, one year later both couples seemed big enough to breed, so I paired the Stillwater male with the Kingsville female, and the Kingsville male with the Stillwater female, resulting in 29 juveniles. All quite normally patterned, nothing in between.

The next year, I bred my Kingsville male to my Kingsville female, giving 16 juveniles, all “Tigers”.

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=424704
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=424703

Therefore, given it’s all-or-nothing nature as observed, I concluded that if indeed this “Tiger” thing would turn out to be an inheritable trait, it would have to be single recessive. However, reasonable as this all may sound, it really doesn’t prove anything. Getting “Tigers” by breeding (presumed heterozygous) normals on the other hand, actually would.

And so it was done.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

The offspring resulting from the 2011 Kingsville x Stillwater crosses displayed a plethora of colors, going from the brightest yellows through the deepest reds, most of them somewhere in between. It took several months before I dared to select my future breeders, except for this one particularly handsome specimen which drew my attention from day one. Unlike the others, it didn’t take months before his colors really started to surface. In fact, this one already displayed the brightest, deepest red from day one.

Again, I really didn’t give it that much thought at the time.

Besides this one particularly beautiful (male) specimen, a very nice bright red female was selected as his future mate. Also, another pair from the yellow side of the spectrum was selected, mostly for back up reasons. This felt a little redundant at the time, but now I’m glad I did.

Anyway, as these four hold backs matured, their colors enveloped more and more, especially with the above mentioned particularly attractive specimen. In fact, it really didn’t take him that much time, until his red color actually became brighter and deeper than my finest Kingsville Red Bull. Also, it’s belly turned out to be quite red as well, which is quite unusual, if not unprecedented.

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429480
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429481
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429482
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

So as time went by, another thought surfaced, even wilder than the first one. Could it be some genetically inheritable kind of hypererythrism? Something like the “Blood” variant in Boas, for example?

If so, then this trait probably originated from the original Stillwater female (his mother), not the original Kingsville male (his father), as I raised two clutches of pure Kingsville Red Bulls, giving a total of 27 hatchlings, all of them “Tiger” and none of them “Blood”. Also, this would imply the trait to be dominant, or else it wouldn’t have surfaced in the first generation.

Yeah, I know. This all sounds like quite the little stretch, right? Well, as it turned out, I was right. About both. And then some.

I just love it when a plan comes together.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429501
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429502
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429503

Pictures show five Tigers, two of them also Blood.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Pics:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Wrong pictures in the above post. These are the ones I had in mind:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Notice the black eyes on both of them:

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429484
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429485
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429486
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429487

Close up on SW Hypo Tiger Blood:

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429483
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Pics:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Close up on the SW Hypo Tiger Blood Bull:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

This one Trumbower came as yet another surprise.

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429497
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429498
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429499

Close up on Stillwater Hypo:

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429500
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Pics:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Close up on Stillwater Hypo:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

In case you wondered...

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429496
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Pic:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429492
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429493
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429494
http://gallery.connectedbypets.com/photo.php?id=429495

Both were born early august.

You can easilly tell which one is which, unless off course you're color blind.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Pics:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Full body shot:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Head shot:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Belly shot:

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

1 Albino (Stillwater Hybino?) Tiger
1 Trumbower Hypo
1 Stillwater Hypo
3 Red Tigers
2 Blood Red Tigers
1 Stillwater Hypo Tiger
2 Stillwater Hypo Blood Red Tigers
12 Normals
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

No, I don't think my Tigers are related to yours. They look very different.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

What a great story! Thanks for the background. It's fun to read about new adventures in Pit breeding! Congrats and best of luck with your project!

Thank you very much!

It took me hours to write and post this stuff, so I do realize it may all be a bit much to chew on, LOL.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

GREAT Job Herman!

I Happy for you Bro, its very cool when all the hard work has a great pay off and you've earned it for sure.

RGDS...........AL

Much appreciated, Al!

Seems like I'm gradually becoming the you of Bullsnakes, LOL.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

LOL that's a good one Herman

I'm so pleased when anyone has success with pituophis, even my great Dutch brothers

When you breed only for the love then I think the element of satisfaction is far, far greater than any financial reward brings.

AL