Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All the name calling aside, you were countered on your position about genetics. I am interested in how you can possibly say that Jon R, proved anything without back breeding? I am curious as your such a stickler for accuracy when it comes to genetics. Or did your anger simply get the best of you.
You said he proved the first Mexican axanthic was recessive, because he bred it to several normal and only produced visual normals. I have to wonder how that proved anything. I am under the belief that one more step is necessary and that is to back breed an offspring(possible het) back to the possible recessive parent. Or het to het, which is less accurate and takes more events to prove out.
Or even how can you say that my breeding did not indicate a recessive trait. As I bred a visual axanthic founder, to a visual axanthic founder, and received 3 out of 3, visual axanthics.
Then you stated, all I did was breed two like looking animals and received like looking neonates. Which is silly and naïve, we are not talking about normal colored animals, we are talking about a morph, an abnormal trait. While I agree, more work needs to be done and I and others will do it. You seem to think, I am the luckiest guy in the world. So can you explain yourself?
Start with question number one, how was what Jon R. did, prove anything? And two, why do you dismiss what did occur? three neonate axanthics?
Remember, All I said was, I did produce the first captive hatched Kennerlyi axanthic. I actually produced the first three. That's one, two, and three. hahahahahahahahaha
I guess I could post pics of their bellies to PROVE they are axanthics. Best wishes

Hey Frank,
This is in no way to question what you produced, or what you have. but could you post pics of the 3 babies? I ask because Im excited for you, the hobby, and to one day be on board with this project. I saw the one really really white one, and it was amazing. I want to see more! thanks
Will

Thanks, I will take some more recent pics. So far, theres a dark one like the female and two liter ones, like the male. The problem is, they are almost always full of food. The females are taking two pinks every third day. The male has only taken one pink so far. The girls are out growing him by a lot. Best wishes

I am sure he will catch up. Im really interested in seeing the dark phase too. I have to say though I think the light axanthic you posted is the nicest axanthic hog I have ever seen, and I have quite a few axanthic westerns that Im partial too. Yours are absolutely stunning.

Will

ps have you found any hatchling axanthics out in the field? Im curious how they stand up to your light phase babies

Hi Will, I am going to attempt to line breed both the light and dark lines.
I agree the two lighter ones (I have a pair) are amazing. Yet, I really like the darker one too, To me they are very different then the westerns. Of course I had no idea, I would be able to pair up anything muchless color phases. The last axanthic I found was a dark male, so I have pairs of each.
I have no idea what will occur breeding lite to lite and dark to dark. My guess is, I will get more extremes of each, at least hopefully. Cheers

"I actually produced the first three. That's one, two, and three."

What color were the dead ones?

You know, the other half of this clutch that you killed.

one was all white. hahahahahahahahaha You are so weird its amazing, good luck with your life.
I would love to follow your line of thinking.
Nasty, why did you kill all those Boelens pythons?

"Nasty, why did you kill all those Boelens pythons?"

Geez, now that statement deserves some elaboration

Will
(Boelen's keeper)

I agree.

As someone borderline obsessed boelens, I'd like to know the rest of the story.

If by his logic, me failing to hatch some eggs in the clutch, is killing them. Then apply that logic back to him. If he says hes never had boelens, then hes killed lots of them. The reason is simple, hes so perfect that he would have easily produced generation after generation. That he has not, means many generations did not exist. Therefore he killed them. If he had them and failed, the same applys. I need to catch my breathe now. Remember, that's how HIS/HER's logic works.
After all, I am fairly certain in reality, we have all failed to hatch eggs, so his remarks falls on all who have eggs go bad(for whatever reason) So all the keepers and there are many here, that failed to hatch eggs, are in the same boat as I am. We killed the snakes before they hatched. I wonder if I am getting this right. He may be calling me a killer because I failed to hatch infertile eggs or ovum(jelly beans). Guess you will have to ask him/her/it, what him/her/it means. hahahahahahahaha

Oh, I gotcha. Then by his logic, I am a mass murderer. As I have had hundreds upon hundreds of eggs that have not hatched in my care. Sheesh, for the monitor eggs alone that died full term in my care, I oughta get the chair.

Or, perhaps, as experienced keepers, we know that some eggs not hatching is just sadly part of the deal. Those of us that are honest and don't make the claim that we've never lost eggs are able to use the experiences as a teaching tool. Over the course of my 30 years or so of hatching (and losing) eggs, I have learned that the keepers that claim to have never lost snakes or eggs, really just haven't dealt with that many. Perfection without any real numbers is easy to claim.

Will

PS - no dead boeleni eggs here, but they did breed last night

they better send us to the chair together. Yes, theres a learning curve and that's what I am in the middle of with hognose details. In this case, I could have hatched a few more but I went and tested my sons hatching method. But then that's what I do, test things. Thanks

You already admitted how you killed them. Should I repost youre quote so everyone including Will can see that it was your fault and not simply failing to hatch them as you would like them to believe?

So by all means FR, explain to everyone why one was all white? I already know the answer but I want to see just how deep your ignorance runs.

I third that! I keep them as well, and that statement just hurt my heart. How/why did you kill them? Not saying you intended to
Will

Right after they bred, I traited them for a group of V.T.orientalis. Which I did very well with.
The blackheaded pic is for fun.

Man I love those black pythons. One day i'll have some! truly my dream snake.

the ole wallet should be nice a fat after this deployment... hmmm... get the wife new hardwood floors for the house and be a happy husband, or pick up some boelens and be single? decisions decisions

Hi Aaron,

Take care on that deployment, man.

I love my boeleni, their beauty sucks the air out of my lungs every time I look at them. Also, contrary to the popular literature, but in-line with what Dave Barker has expressed when we have discussed them (and we have, at length), they are without a doubt meant for survival. They are strong as hell. Nothing about them is frail. He said to me in Daytona one year over hard cider and beer "Will, they are nothin' but a big, black scrub python, and the person that figures that out will breed them with ease. If you can raise a boeleni, you oughta be able to breed a boeleni. But people try to make them special, and treat them with kid gloves. That is where we all have failed." (paraphrased, in part).

In addition, as an old desert rat from AZ once told me, offer them hot and cold at the same time and feet the shat out of them. That is my personal game plan for the 14'/15' season

One more thing, they get much bigger than most folks realize. My 6 year olds are the size of young, breeding, adult burms. (with the feeding response of a retic on crack). 10-11ft. for males 12 ft females, with a heavier build than their scrub bretheren.

Anyway, spend some quiet time on deployment planning your boeleni attack, then come back and go for it. If you breed them, you can buy your wife a new, hardwood house, much less a floor. Take care, man.

Will

For what it's worth, I was in NOLA this week, hence my "disappearance". I just didn't have the time or energy to post until now.

"Or did your anger simply get the best of you."

What makes you assume that I was angry? I just call a spade a spade. If you think I was angry, then you are merely projecting your feelings onto me. In fact, I only called you a liar because you've been telling and implying untruths. Before it was deleted, I did see where you called me a bunch of names that had nothing to do with anything other than your anger. If anybody is angry Frank, it's you!

"I am interested in how you can possibly say that Jon R, proved anything without back breeding?"

I never said he did prove anything. Unfortunately, what I wrote has been deleted so now I cannot show you exactly what I actually said. But I will reiterate, I never said he proved anything.

"You said he proved the first Mexican axanthic was recessive, because he bred it to several normal and only produced visual normals. I have to wonder how that proved anything."

Again, I never said "he proved the first Mexican axanthic was recessive", that is 100% incorrect. What I actually said was that the outcrossed breeding that Jon did proved that the axanthic coloration was "broken" by outcrossing which is more along the lines of how a recessive trait works. I said that by him doing that, he proved more about the genetics than you did because he actually did outcrossing whereas you did not.

Example, if you breed two normals together and you get more normals, that only proves that you are combining like traits to like traits and able to produce more. So, if you breed 2 albinos together and get more albinos, that doesn't mean you've proven whether or not they are a recessive trait or anything else for that matter other than the fact that if you breed two like traits together, then you will be able to produce more of the same trait. But the problem is, this type of like pairing can produce the same results with dominant, recessive, codominant, incomplete dominant and polygenic traits. The only hitch is with the codominant, incomplete dominant and polygenic traits as these traits will usually produce variations or different morphs altoether such as an anaconda x anaconda should also produce normals and supercondas, but it's not unheard of to produce all anacondas and not a single normal or superconda which could lead one to assume that the anaconda gene could either be dominant or recessive for that matter.

The trick to proving a trait, something I would have thought you'd know by now with all of your years of experience, is to find a means to break the trait by outcrossing it which will eventually tell you what type of trait you are working with. You do not prove anything by producing the same trait from pairing the same like individuals, that proves nothing about what the gene is or how it works!

"I am under the belief that one more step is necessary and that is to back breed an offspring(possible het) back to the possible recessive parent. Or het to het, which is less accurate and takes more events to prove out."

That's correct, there's plenty of steps that need to be taken to properly prove out a trait. Again, with your years of experience, you should know already that properly proving traits can take many years of inbreeding and outcrossing individuals. This is something you've not done at all, nor did Jon for that matter. Neither of you individually proved this trait out at all. All you proved was that breeding axanthics to axanthics will produce more axanthics. Jon proved that breeding axanthics to normals will produce normals. Jon's pairing was a lot more informative because he showed that the trait was not only broken by outcrossing but that it was not acting in a manner that showed dominance, codominance or incomplete dominance. However, Jon still had a lot more work to do to properly prove it out, but outcrossing is a huge step in proving a trait, something you have not yet done.

"how can you say that my breeding did not indicate a recessive trait. As I bred a visual axanthic founder, to a visual axanthic founder, and received 3 out of 3, visual axanthics."

Seriously Frank? Are you really this ignorant? How does breeding 2 like animals prove anything at all? It doesn't!

Example, let's say we have an island populate with only indigenous albino hognose snakes. All we know is that the albinos breed to albinos and they produce more albinos. Unless we are able to find an indigenous non-albino to do an outcrossing to see what will be produced, we don't know if the albino trait is dominant, recessive or anything else for that matter because we have a limited gene pool of only albinos to work with. It's like trying to solve an algebra problem a+b=c. If you only know that c=3, that doesn't mean that you can assume that a=1 and b=2 even though those do add up to 3, but you can also have a=0 and b=3 and get the same answer. The fact is, you cannot solve that problem until more data is known or discovered.

This is the exact same case with these mexican axanthics. You have only worked with a minimal part of the equation and are now making assumptions as to what these traits are. Yes, you can actually be correct simply by guessing, but that doesn't mean you've proven anything until you do all of the work and outcrossing is a huge determining factor in proving traits out, again, something you have not done.

"Then you stated, all I did was breed two like looking animals and received like looking neonates. Which is silly and naïve, we are not talking about normal colored animals, we are talking about a morph, an abnormal trait."

On the contrary, you are the one being silly and naive by claiming what this trait is without having done the necessary and proper work to prove this trait out. Like I previously stated, Jon gained more information about this trait by outcrossing than you did by pairing like animals.

Like I keep saying, it boggles my mind how someone of your standing who has been keeping reptiles far longer than I have has so little understanding of how to properly prove traits or even about simple Mendelian genetics.

"Start with question number one, how was what Jon R. did, prove anything?"

Jon didn't prove what the actual trait was. What Jon proved was that the trait can be broken by outcrossing and that the hatchlings produced were normal which is indicative of how recessive traits work but I never said that his outcrossing proved that the trait was recessive. That's all I said and it is 100% correct.

"And two, why do you dismiss what did occur? three neonate axanthics?"

I didn't dismiss anything. I understand that you bred two axanthics together and produced more axanthics. What is there to dismiss? All I'm saying is that what you did doesn't prove anything other than pairing the same traits together will produce the exact same trait which, again, pretty much happens with just about every type of Mendelian trait out there. The magic happens when you outcross, that's when you actually start to learn something about what these traits are and how they work. Yes, you produced more axanthics, good for you, but you still have zero idea about what they are and you won't until you outcross them.

For what it's worth, it's a safe bet to assume that the trait at this point is a recessive trait, but only because of the outcrossing work that Jon did which showed that breeding an axanthic to a normal produces normals which is how recessive traits work which leads us to assume that all of his hatchlings were het axanthic. Unfortunately, none of those hatchlings were ever bred back to their axanthic parent nor inbred to each other to prove whether they were in fact het axanthic, if the axanthic gene was acting as a recessive trait.

"Remember, All I said was, I did produce the first captive hatched Kennerlyi axanthic. I actually produced the first three."

The problem I have with you is that you have been acting like you've been the first one to find these animals and work with them, which is entirely untrue. Only after I called you out on this did you respond and pretty much corroborated everything I stated in my deleted post, but only because you had to try and regain some credibility by turning the tables using my truths against me which was rather entertaining. But I understand your tactics, I backed you into a corner and you were forced to come clean but chose to use the facts that I presented to attack me in order to reclaim some credibility.

"I guess I could post pics of their bellies to PROVE they are axanthics."

What a weird way to end your post. Did I ever say that these snakes were NOT axanthic? Nope, not once, not ever. Now you are desperately trying to imply that I stated this but I never made that assertion.

Perhaps you are confusing me with Nasicus. He actually made the ignorant statement that the only way you can prove that these are axanthic is if you can make snows from pairing these with albinos. What Gregg previously stated, was based from a conversation he had with me where I told him the exact same thing that he posted here.

Regardless, you made the childish statements (in your deleted posts) that I was jealous and a hater which is so far from the truth that it's laughable. I'm not jealous at all and the only thing I hate is arrogance and lies which seems to constitute who you are as a person. As far as the axanthic mexicans go, honestly, I wasn't even that interested in them back when Jon first showed them years ago. I was excited yes because it was a cool discovery, but that's where it ended.

But whatever Frank, you believe what you want to believe as will your kool-aid drinking sycophantic cronies. I honestly could care less. My only aim was to set the record straight, which I did. Other than that, this forum is pretty much now a lost cause. So have at it!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Heres the deal, I never believe anything I read here, I consider it, but believe, no. So what you say is pretty much meaningless. And you can say anything you like.
Also, again your want to be exacting. Yet, you again make assumptions. How do you know if these were out crosses or not. They are TWO founder parents. I have no idea if they are related or not.
The point is again, I did indeed produce three Mexican axanthics. What the genetics turns out to be will be whatever it is. That is not important to me. I produced them from two founder animals(from nature) This is not deli cup genetics, its natural to this point. And these axanthics are natural occurring phenotypes.
Next year, I will most likely breed this female to a different founder. And also include two more founder pairs of axanthics.
So what they are, will be revealed in the future.
That said, you know as well as I, that producing three neonate axanthics from two axanthic parents indicates they are most likely recessives, as the percentage of axanthics in that population is very very small.
Are you like nasty, in this case yes. You like him, posted only to lessen others achievements. Calling me a lair, for what? I produced what I said I was going to produce. Got proof of that sir. I also agreed with nasicus that more work will be done. I am not quitting today. Whether or not they are recessive will indeed be proved out by me and others that I gift neonates too.
All in all, it would be stupid of me to outcross for hets, when I have pairs of axanthics. I would think only an idiot would do that right off. of course that will come later. With a possible recessive, you outcross because you have too.
Its rare that founder morphs can be started with pairs, but it does occur, Albino Sonoran gophers were started by two albinos, a sexual pair, found at the exact same site, on successive years. Cheers

"All in all, it would be stupid of me to outcross for hets, when I have pairs of axanthics. I would think only an idiot would do that right off"

Why would you not outcross as soon as possible? It is an essential part of proving out how the gene is inherited. It is pretty important to do that. Take the "sables" for example. There have been hets sold yet the gene was never proven recessive and at this point, it most likely isn't.

Anyway, it would be quite easy to do the out cross. You can use 1 male for multiple females so it would take nothing to take one of your axanthic males and plug him into a normal female. This is a position that any breeder would want to be in this early on in the process of proving out a gene. It is actually the smart thing and the ideal thing to do. You would be shaving a few seasons off proving them out.

That's just my 2 cents.

I could careless about proving anything. My interest is line breeding these axanthics. I would love to see others outcross them if they want.
I will breed my male axanthics to a couple of other color types found in the exact same area.(at some point)
I was going to outcross them to the white normal, then I found white axanthics. That eliminated that step.
How I do what I do, is concentrate. That is what I will do. The first step was producing axanthics, that is done. Now I want to work the white line, separate from the dark line. What will come from it? heck if I know, That's the fun part.
About proving anything, again, others can do what they want. Its not like I am going anywhere(I hope)
I have already lined up some friends who will help me with this fun stuff.

Hey FR, told you so buddy. Your complete lack of understanding about genetics are as boundless as your arrogance.

You say that you dont believe what is typed on here but you expect everyone to believe you?

Yet another FR hypocrisy....

I do not expect anyone to believe anything, except the animals. You see, that's your problem, your a recipe keeper and they only believe eachother. Which is why its called recipe keeping.
Its also why My stuff bothers you, it requires you to think and that's impossible for some folks.
You see, while you babble science, you have no understanding of science what so ever. Science it never to believe, or even think you know, its to question and question again. Its never about knowing, its about asking a better question. Here, we are suppose to consider the animal and think, not keep them in plastic spider cages on sphagnum moss and attack anyone that questions all methods of keeping(including my own)

In plastic tubs with less than 1/4 inch aspen chips?

Why are you torturing you animals FR?

I love it when you post pics of my beautiful female Mexican axanthic. Thanks

Hi Frank,

Is this person the one that proudly posted his adult female in an 18" cube, acrylic, tarantula cage, stuffed with moss? I hope not, because that would just compound the layers of hypocracy in his posts. I mean, if I were to spell it out, that robust, gravid, female that you are supposedly torturing proved that her axanthism is in-fact genetic by passing the trait to her offspring. What has he proven? Other than he can be mosquito like in his level of annoyance (sadly, this isn't face to face, so he can't be slapped away). You have stated, and proven with pics, that you use many types of cages, while he has shown nothing but one rather inappropriate cage that he immediately got called out for, and we haven't seen since. Also, he thinks he is the great speaker of the masses by going after your every post, yet nobody jumps in, or piles on to agree with him. Finally, he gets corrected repeatedly for his misinformation, even by other members of his clan, yet he accuses you of the same.

I have to ask? What does this person think he/she is accomplishing, other than appearing like a world class d-bag (rhymes with smoosh). Help me out man, I'm stumped.

Will

Its really hard for die hard recipe keepers who specialize on a specific species of captive lines, to a point that the snakes are no longer animals, but merely a sack of genes. to get trumped by some old man who knows nothing about their hognose.
You see, recipe keepers are not about sweater boxes, as nasicus attempts to make it ALL ABOUT, they are about eachother. They believe in eachother, and treat the animals only as place holders. A tool to be "in"(a group) As I am not in that group, heck I am totally not a hognose guy, I am a reptile guy.
So he and they, will say and do anything thing they can to disparage anything I do or say. Its absolutely normal( for a child)
Whats funny is, I and we, will keep on doing and keep on getting better and doing better and that does give them reason to fear and act like children. So they do.
Whats important is, I/we will keep on posting the results we ACHIEVE, both successes and failures.
If you look at their posts here, they NEVER post failures. Or even attempts at what they are hoping to do, they wait and only post if they actually succeed.
He keeps mentioning the eggs that I killed and I did indeed wipe out some eggs. But then, I did ask for details about all things hognose related and received nothing of detail. In the two years here, maybe three posts contained something valuable related to husbandry. And none by nasicus.
His problem is, I made them feel bad, I did not call them names, I just brought up subjects they were uncomfortable with. So they tried to drive me away. They do so by attacking like you see now. The problem is, I am not a click guy, I am a reptile guy. I could give a crap what he/she/it thinks, I do care what the animals do. And of course I feel bad about screwing up some eggs and I will indeed learn from that and Hope to prevent that in the future. I not going no where. Keep on keeping on.