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Proving out how a genetic trait is inherited and proving that a trait is inheritable are very different.

Frank. you proved without a doubt that the axanthic gene in kennerlyi is indeed inheritable. Meaning it can be passed down to offspring. When breeding 2 like animals, it is likely you will get like offspring.

This is where proving how it is inherited comes into play. In other words, proving out the genetics.

You were indeed fortunate enough to have started with a pair of axanthics. A situation that rarely if ever occurs in captivity. This is why breeding a visual to a normal wild type is the first step in proving out a morph in most cases. It does not matter which step is taken first. However they are two equally important steps when trying to prove a morphs genetic inheritance.

You have established that breeding axanthic to axanthic produces more axanthics. This is no longer up for debate. Also, no one can debate the fact that these are indeed the first of their kind to be reproduced in a captive setting. I also never saw anyone try to say otherwise.

Breeding a visual to a normal will produce all wild type normals which has been established by Jon Roylance.

If breeding two normals from that pairing yields axanthic offspring, you will then know how the trait is being passed down to the next generation. Anything else is just a guess no matter how educated it may be. I am certain that the axanthic in kennerlyi is recessive, however, it is still just my guess and has yet to be proven.

I see no problem producing 100% hets. It is when people stupidly produce 66% and 50% hets. That can cause a crap storm.

Hi Gregg,

Good post, this paragraph is all either of us has been saying:

"Frank. you proved without a doubt that the axanthic gene in kennerlyi is indeed inheritable. Meaning it can be passed down to offspring. When breeding 2 like animals, it is likely you will get like offspring. "

Neither Frank, nor myself has claimed anything more. This trait is carried from parent to offspring. At this point, that's all that is known. We all agree that it's likely recessive, but that is neither here nor there at this point.

However, Troy repeatedly states that this is not the case. To paraphrase: that Frank's breeding does not prove this to be a heritable trait when one understands the trait. Those words can be read many times in several sections of the last exchange.

This is where the conflict arose.

Thanks.

Will

Will,
Don't get me wrong here. I do understand what Troy is saying and where his argument is in this. Troys knowledge is much deeper than you guys believe. Troys argument is that being that numerous axanthics have been pulled from the wild, this means that the trait has already been proven in nature. It is obviously an endemic color variety at this point. How it is being passed in nature is unimportant. The fact is, it is not a one off mutation. And I happen to agree with this way of thinking.

Maybe a better way to say it is Frank has shown the trait is inheritable.

I don't think that trying to discredit Troy is the right thing to do. Troy and I are very close and talk almost everyday. He has a broad knowledge base and is one of the most intelligent people I know. I can not sit here and allow you guys to attack him or his character.

"Maybe a better way to say it is Frank has shown the trait is inheritable."

This is all I am, or have been saying. That's it, nothing more. Nobody is disputing that it is showing up in the wild, that is obvious. Clearly it is not random. There is clearly a genetic basis for it. All either of us has said is that he proved it to be inheritable in a captive situation, again, nothing more.

Troy has attacked my character throughout all of this, I've been called a liar repeatedly for stating nothing more than you have above. I've been called Frank's crony and lap dog for stating the same sentence that you have above.

You may defend him all you want, but he opened this can of worms, he made it ugly and personal. His damage control is not my problem. He expanded his issues with Frank to include me. I don't care how intelligent he is, he disputed the obvious in a nasty fashion from day one. Let's here from him now that you are saying the same thing as Frank and I regarding this trait.

The fact that we haven't heard from him, and you are telling us what a stand-up guy he is, is also telling of his character. I have no beef with you, in fact I respect your body of work tremendously. However, that not withstanding, Troy's a big boy, let him deal with the fallout he has created. Thanks Gregg.

Will

I am just saying that Troy is no idiot. I just could not watch him being trashed without speaking up.
I have no problem with you Will. I know things got heated. I just needed to speak up as his friend.

Gregg, the problem is, he is acting like an idiot. That's all it takes.
Gregg, what makes him NOT an idiot? I am truly interested in that?
I have to ask, what gives him the right to call me and Will Lairs. I/we have not lied.
please no offense, but I was proving out morphs before he was born. Is he really stupid enough to think this line is not going to be proved out in all ways in the next few years. Why is he going on an on over the first breeding, at the first opportunity?
Seriously, it is what it is, I hatched some. Why is he going on and on? Calling names and all manner of Idiotic behavior.
Seriously, I have pics of the adults in the field, copulating eggs and hatching. What part is he missing?
I want to know what IDIOT that is lucky enough to locate a pair of founder morphs and then would out breed them right off? that really cracks me up. To even suggest that is idiotic. And you know that is true. So Gregg, if you caught an female albino kennerlyi and a male albino, Would you really not breed them to eachother???? I wait for that answer.

"I want to know what IDIOT that is lucky enough to locate a pair of founder morphs and then would out breed them right off? that really cracks me up. To even suggest that is idiotic"

exactly...

If I had found an pair of albino kennerlyi, I would without a doubt breed them together to make more albinos. That is a no brainer. I would also take that albino male and breed him to a couple of normal wild type females and produce myself a bunch of hets to work with as well to help prove the inheritance in that same season. As you both know, males are fully capable of, and will breed a few females per season. I am able to get males and females up to good breeding condition in a year so those hets would be bred to eachother the next season. I would also take a visual and breed it to a het to help prove the genetic inheritance even further. There is indeed a widely accepted process to proving out inheritance. It is done this way with snakes and lizards in our hobby all the way up to in a lab when trying to figure out the mode of inheritance for other animal and human genetic diseases and disorders.

Frank, the fact that you found 2 or more axanthics to start your proving out process is amazing and puts you in a position that any deli cupper, including myself, would dream about.

I don't think that anyone is questioning why you bred the two axanthics together. Like I said, that would be a no brainer. My only question to you is.... What do you have against hets? Hahaha... I only ask because you specifically stated that you did not want to produce them.

I am in no way trying to take anything away from what you have done here Frank. It is a truly remarkable event and you did what you set out to do.

Another question I have is, can you come up with a rough percentage of axanthic kennerlyi in that area? It is very interesting to me that a recessive gene can be so plentiful. I know the genes can "survive" in het form pretty easily. I wonder how many animals in that area are actually het for the axanthic gene if there are so many visuals. I think you can take this a lot further Frank.

Gregg, You need to go back and read Troys accusations. What he is doing is calling us lairs with his stupid, useless accusations.
ALso, What you are thinking is hypothetical. You are not in my shoes.
First, why would you out breed them? with westerns there are many morphs to out breed too. With kennerlyi, there are few to none. You have that odd pattern type that Vin Russo had. And next year I will have those two I posted here. Before that, I did not have any other adult females to outbreed too. And I am not going to take adult females out of nature, just to make hets. I would rather dip Troy in a vat of crap then take an animal out of nature, to prove something to him or anyone.
My yellow female. I would rather prove that out first before mucking it up. Same for the black and white(just what I call it from when it was a neonate). Again, I do not have matching males, So I may breed one to an axanthic male. Hopefully those two are co doms. But that is in the future. The point is, I am being told, no demanded to do what some yahoo rants to the public. He rants to cause confusion and be argumentative and disparaging. That is an attempt to show me in poor lite. The point and it has always been the point. I produced Mexican axanthics. That was the goal from the start. If folks want this to be like westerns, then They need to find some morphs. Other then that, my time is best spent proving out the three pair I have. I also said, my goal is to refine two lines of Mexican axanthics, The dark type(make them darker) and the white type,(make them whiter) until other morphs pop up, I do not have any reason to make worthless(of no genetic value) hets.
So Gregg I ask, what do you think I am suppose to do? Would you like me to tell you what to do with your animals. Or better yet, would you like Troy to tell you what to do. pt1

About pioneering, something I have done many times. Many many times. Its done by CONCENTRATING. to keep the goal in mind and work towards that goal until its achieved. Period.
Gregg, I have stated over and over, Others can do the outbreeding. I do not consider "others" a bad thing. What that allows is for me to concentrate on my own interests. I ask this, why do you think I have to do all and everything? I produced axanthics, the rest is fill in the blanks.
The reality is, these axanthics are recessive, you and I know that. If for some reason they are not. That would be a surprise and a far better event. It would be amazing and of far more interest to me and science.
Now for my questions. To this point, Jon Roylance's efforts did not prove anything, Period, correct me if I am wrong. He produced possible hets that never in all these years proved out. Is that true? What the frog happened to that. There are a fair number of hets out there. One fella posted he had three adults and was breeding them to males found at the exact spot Jons animal came from. No results or wrong results? I understand that Jon had something happen, but what about all the others? It did appear there were far more out there then was let on. As far as I can tell, my friend bred a possible het to a normal. And has or had those offspring. He offered them to me for free. hahahahahahahaha I declined and hope to get him a male axanthic soon, So he can prove that out, if he still wants to.
Also any updates on your kennerlyi project, its been a while.

Frank,
Het have genetic worth. They are gene carriers. While they may not visually show the axanthic trait, they still carry the gene to produce more.

You breed het to het, 25% of your clutch will be visual axanthics, 25% will be completely normal and not carry the gene, and 50% will be normal looking and they will be carrying the gene. Het to visual, 50% of your clutch will be visual axanthics and 50% will be normal but carrying the gene. And we all know what happens when you breed visual to visual. Crossing it out to other morphs is only something you do when you want to create a combo morph. The ultimate goal with that is to produce a double homozygous animal. An example of that would be a double visual axanthic albino AKA a snow.

That still does not make normal wild types that are 100% het for a recessive gene worthless on any scale, genetic or market wise.

What you do with your animals is not up to me or anyone. It is up to you Frank. If you made a suggestion to me, I would take it into consideration and be objective. If I still did not agree after considering it I would not implement it into my program. I just posted my opinion on how genetics should be proven out. It is more than taking two like animals and pairing them up to make more like animals. Like I said, it is my opinion and accepted as the means of proving genetics. You do not have to follow that path and you can take my opinion as it is or throw it out the window.

I am not against you or how you do things Frank. As far as Troy goes, I felt the need to say something as his friend. He is a grown man and can certainly defend himself. Again, as his friend and someone who knows him and what he stands for in this hobby, I just could not sit and watch 2 people I respect drag his name through the dirt and say things that are not true about him personally. That's what that was all about. I said what I felt I needed to say and that is where I would like to leave it.

Gregg, your example is naïve. To outbreed is the long way to achieve a desired goal. I took the direct way and I did achieve the desired goal. To make double hets, you need another morph, as mentioned, there WERE none. and Are none to this date.
What would the goal be in making hets. You or they have not offered a single compelling reason to outbreed for hets. If you or anyone would have supplied me with another type of morph(female), then heck yes, I would have attempted to breed it to a axanthic male. again, what was not the reality. This whole het thing is BS. At this time, as there are no other morphs(not here anyway) My son has an albino western, want me to make hets from her????????? I think not. I may do that if no other morphs pop up, say in ten years, if I am still kicking.
So lets stay in reality Gregg. I worked my arse off and found a group. There is no reason on earth to make more work then needed. Another reality, all the while I was doing this, so were many others and they did not have my luck/skill/persistence(hahahahahahaha) So the demand that I take the hard way is bluntly, stupid. The goal, produce Mexican axanthics, the result, Mexican axanthics. The immediate future, work that group. Until another morph pops up. That's what its going to be. I have two other females that will be adult next year, that black and white and that yellow. At some point, they will be bred into the axanthics. One maybe next year, or maybe on their second clutches or third.
I would rather talk about that yellow hog I raised up. I would rather prove it out, line breed it, etc. What would you do with it. Your opinion would be valuable and considered with her. She does pose a problem. I could breed her to a white axanthic male, or a dark axanthic male Or a super lite normal male. What would you do? I don't have another yellow male. I wish I did. If indeed I locate one, I will use him.

ALso, whats so missing in these threads is time. This is the start, not the end. The very beginning. All the stuff you mention will occur in the future. To harp about it now is, Ignorant as heck. I do not think Troy is that stupid, so I have to think he has other reasons for his actions. Its those "those" other reasons that are what we are responding to. He is in fact, making a fool out of himself.
lets look that this. He is a hognose guy, he tries to maintain a decent reputation in that world. Yet, he's acting like a spoiled child. Arguing, fighting, and making up crap. I on the otherhand, am not a hognose guy, I have no reputation to protect or even create. He has nothing to gain, and everything to lose. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. What kind of fool is he? The reality, whatever I do with these hognose, right wrong or indifferent, will not effect him. Yet, he choses to make a fool out of himself, "on a hognose forum". He acts like he is expert, yet makes newbie mistakes. He demanded proof, yet based his reasoning on a number of assumptions(lack of any proof) So instead of defending him, you would be best served coaching him up some, as his current coaching is terrible. Best wishes sir.

Hi Frank,

In lieu of xanthic male to match up with your female, I think it would be interesting to breed her to a very light colored male. Even if the yellow is not intensified in the breeding, perhaps the light wash of the male could prove valuable in refinement, during future generations of line breeding, as the lighter background might intensify the yellow saturation . Who knows???

I also like to focus inward, not outward in projects. I took the S GA eastern kings to F5 and never had the need to outcross them. I just selected the best examples of the traits that I was looking to enhance and went from there.

Of course, that is apples to oranges compared to recessives where value is increased and appearance is altered as combos are created (as we all know), whereas in polygenetic traits it is more of a distillation process. I've been doing the same w/ jcps since '94, just looking for each generation to be a little brighter. That's the nice thing about this hobby, people can work out their projects as they see fit. Good to talk snakes again.

Will

In regards to that yellow female, I would pair her up with the lightest male possible. Even a nice green or greenish male if you have one. That would be my first choices if I did not have a yellow male.

I do not think breeding an axanthic male to that yellow female will do anything for either project. It would actually be counter productive. To me it would not make sense to breed the axanthic gene into a hyper-xanthic animal. Subsequent to that, I would also breed her to a stock normal male to see if the yellow overtakes dark coloration like it does in the lemon ghost morph in westerns.

And just to touch on the creating hets thing one last time. My way of thinking is not naïve. It is how genetic inheritance is figured out and proven. If you have the animals available, it is never a waste to outcross. In your case you did not have the available breedable females to do it. That is completely understandable. It is something that should not be dismissed though. This is your project Frank. You should be the one who proves the inheritance before anyone else can.

Thanks Gregg, you answer was exactly what I had planned to do. Of course its only plans and could change if a better opportunity comes along.
About the naïve comment, it was naïve to my project. As there was no need to apply it to achieve axanthics. And there were no other animals that would be of benefit. about me, I proved out recessives long before most on here were born. So I do have a handle on that. I also have a handle on how they can ruin a hobby as well.
Lastly, I am restricted as to how many I can keep. So I cannot collect them at will, but must work with our state system.
I can collect and gift animals to others, and that does not count against my limit. I can obtain holding permits that exceed limits as well, as of now, I am below those limits but if I am lucky and produce anything next year, I will have one year to excess them, unless I work it out within the system. The truth is, I do not want numbers of hogs. So I will have to work differently they I have in the past(with none state species)
I may apply for holding permits for captive hatched, but not for wild caught. I do not want to take wild animals. The fewer the better, so they will have to be meaningful.
It was funny, when I started this project, I heard all manner of opinions. As it turned out, most were very funny and naïve. And do I have some funny stories about morphs.

"I felt the need to say something as his friend. He is a grown man and can certainly defend himself. Again, as his friend and someone who knows him and what he stands for in this hobby, I just could not sit and watch 2 people I respect drag his name through the dirt and say things that are not true about him personally."

But why is it ok for him to do the same to us? I actually just asked this in more detail in a response to your first or second post. I understand that you don't want to get dragged into this, but I think its a fair question. Thanks.

Will

Gregg, first off, he's the one doing the attacking. Period. All this name calling is his. So how about having a talk with him.
Second, both Troy and you are off, or wrong if you like. As the word prove, or proof is tossed around willy nilly, its odd to me that on one hand, Troy is exacting and on the other, he and now you are making HUGE assumptions. No offense, but you are both making the error he is accusing me of making. My only claim is that I hatched the first kennerlyi axanthics.
His comment of "since several were taken from nature", is where your both wrong, You or Troy have no idea as to where these individuals were found, how close or how far, or if they have common parents or not. As I mentioned, my interest is to prove that out, FOR ME and my field work. His crap of out breeding to normal is a waste of my time. If and when I decide to outbreed them, will fit my interests and not to prove anything. To me that is dumb.
I have said a million times, THis breeding did not prove this pair is a recessive line, there is compelling evidence they may be. I said, I agree with Troy more work is needed and will be done. That he acts like this is over or something is weird. hes acting like a spoiled child whos last in line and all the cookies are gone. hahahahahahahahahahaha Whining and crying. I did what I did, and that's it, the rest he can stick up his cloacal opening. About what he knows, in an area of doing, its not what you know, its what you do, and all he does is whine.