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I have 2 2014 hogs. They seem to process food faster than most other colubrids I have had before. Is this a true statement about Western hognose in general? Per-week cage cleaning for just these two hognose takes as much time as for 4 cal kings.

Are adult hogs like this as well?

Metabolic rates in reptiles is mostly dependent on temperatures. The optimum temperature in order for a reptiles metabolism to run efficiently varies between species.

What you are talking about is digestion which is an entirely different process than metabolism. Rate of digestion will also vary from species to species.

Digestion is how the body processes intake in the gastrointestinal tract and expels waste through the intestines.

Metabolism is what the cells do to utilize the energy we have absorbed from our intake during and through the digestive process.

So, to answer your question, a hognose snakes metabolic rate is most likely no faster than most other colubrids. However, they are more in line with other small colubrid species like garters, brown snakes, etc, with how fast they digest their intake.

I think this is one of those questions that's a bit confusing and in a lot of ways.
The problem is, there is a huge difference between what they do and what we allow them to do in captivity. And with hogs, its very true.
Its easy to see fast thin daytime active snakes such as coachwhips, racers, etc. Utilize high temps. and are commonly seen active in the hotter times of the day. Other species, avoid the heat of the day(on the surface) and move on the surface at night.
Hognose, cover a wide range of conditions, crawling when its very cool and commonly active when its very hot.
One huge misconception is digestion. Keepers think its takes a long time, like several days or longer. Which is very very odd. In the field, most snakes consume, digest, pass waste, in 24 hours. Very mammal like. If they are supported with normal operating temps(to them) I recorded free ranging snakes. I had a wild coachwhip, consume 4 to 7 small mice a day for 14 and 16 days in a row. Only to stop to lay eggs. I also had diamondbacks, feed daily for several months. Mohaves as well. Also gophersnakes.
So yes, hogs utilize high temps. Like varanids, and like varanids, they must have the ability to use cool temps as well.
The point, in 18 years of taking BT's of montane rattlesnakes, the highest body temp was 97F on a gravid female with a large food bolus. Normally the temps were from the forties to the mid eighties. Kingsnakes, COOL TEMPS IN NATURE. mid eighties would be rare. Hogs, commonly over 90F with a max of 106F. So yes, hogs utilize heat that simply would kill kingsnakes. so I guess we can say they have(utilize) a higher metabolism then kings. That is they choose to use a higher metabolism then kings choose to use.

Hi,

While I agree with Gregg that they are separate functions, they overlap and are both related to available heat choices. More available heat speeds up both processes. Snakes can digest more and larger food items when they are given access to higher temps, while still maintaining the cool options (this is important). This effects metabolism by allowing more calories and nutrients to cells that are ready to process them, allowing snakes to grow at the upper end of their genetic potential.

Will

Yes, they eat and crap and eat and crap, and quickly.
While Gregg is not wrong, In the field, we find hognose with active body temps over a 100F, and between 95F and 105F commonly, which means they run a high metabolism. They are close to coachwhips, if not the same as to active body temps.
In a box, your right, they eat and crap a whole lot, but do not necessarily grow faster then other snakes. They are what is commonly called messy snakes. Like indigos.
Back to the field. I have reported hogs to be out and moving at very low temps as well. 46F was the coldest air temp for a snake out and moving. With mid fifties for snakes crossing roads. So what we have is a snake that can do both, high and low metabolism, depending on supporting temps. At high temps, they consume food daily and process daily.
Again in captivity, it depends on what temps we are talking about.
From your post. yes, adults are the same and eat and crap a whole lot. And yes, three or four times the maintenance of kingsnakes.

I understand that metabolism and digestion in reptiles relies on temps. And that both processes can be intertwined. What I was saying is that rate of digestion or the time it takes for food to be passed (which is what the OP described), has nothing to do with metabolic rate. They have two very different functions and the speed of one is not dictated by the other.

Then I think we disagree, speed of digestion is strongly based on temps. As are preferred temps with active reptiles(high metabolism).
I am trying to understand how you can say what your saying and of course, I have a hard time because I see reptiles in the field and its much easier to understand there.
Lets just say that I can see what your saying in some context. I agree that digestion can and does occur at a fairly wide range of temps. As does growth. But that is not the point or how it works.
High temps is what allows large bolus to breakdown. Once that occurs, the snakes then move to lower temps, then lower temps again. If that does not occur, they regurgitate.
A month or so ago, I posted a pic of a wild hog feeding, it had toads from its mouth to its cloaca. A line of constant digestion. Prey was coming out the back as fast as it could go in the front. Explain that please.
Anyway, in my opinion, the OP's question was a non scientific hobby based question. And was correct, hogs are messing snakes compared to kingsnakes and other colubrids. They are akind to Label placed on indigos, crap every day, all over the cage. Lots of maintaince.
Without question, heat supports metabolism. Its also easy to see, that the amount of heat used is based on design. That is, fast moving species have adapted to using physical ability for such things as defense, speed to avoid predators. At lower temps, such snakes as coachwhips are simply not fast. They must maintain high body temps to support their physical design. In the field, hogs are without question, heat lovers. On the same level as coachwhips. At that level, they are very fast snakes. Their crawling speed is amazing. Last year, we found a neonate crossing the road. We recorded it, we then found it two hours later. Its was 3/4's of a mile from the first contact and it was a neonate. Just one example.
Could you offer some support for your opinions. Thanks

Frank,
I never negated the fact that temps have a lot to do with digestion and metabolism. What I am saying is that rate of digestion has nothing to do with rate of metabolism.

I know that watching animals in their natural habitat is very important, however, I do not see how rate of metabolism compared to rate of digestion can be more easily observed in the field than it would be in captivity. Not sure how one can even study metabolic rate outside of a laboratory.

What is metabolism? I guess if you define it, then I could actually contribute to the discussion.
In this context, I think of it as the rate calories are burned/utilized. There is no question, the higher a snakes body temps are, the faster they burn calories. And it does not matter what species.
How this relates to digestion is interesting. If your animals are at the high end of their metabolism, then more heat will not increase the rate of digestion. But if they are at the low end of their ability to digest food, then by increasing the temps, it will increase the speed of digestion. In nature, the temps they seek(rate of metabolism) is directly related to bolus size. The larger the bolus, the higher the temps they chose. At least until digestion is under way.
Of course different species, have different upper limits of metabolism. As well as different lower limits.
In my opinion, the hognose I am working with have a very high upper limit and a very high metabolism. Keep in mind, all reptiles use a range of temps and a corresponding rate of metabolism. What say you sir?

Here is an actual definition of the word.

"Metabolism is the set of life-sustaining chemical transformations within the cells of living organisms. These enzyme-catalyzed reactions allow organisms to grow and reproduce, maintain their structures, and respond to their environments."

All digestion does is bring in food to be utilized by the metabolic system and release is as waste.

Also, metabolism does not just have to do with burning calories. It has to do with how the cells distribute and use energy.

Again, it was never a question of whether or not both functions rely on heat to be achieved or to operate efficiently. It does rely on temperature in all animals.

My gaboon vipers would take up to a month or 2 in some cases to pass waste after a meal. Does this mean it took a month or 2 to metabolize that meal? No, because they would still eat weekly and maintain proper body condition throughout their lives. And we are talking about fairly inactive snakes here. The would only be active during breeding season and for a day or two after feeding as they moved from gradient to gradient.

It really sucks to clean up 2 months worth of built up fecal matter when they finally decide to let it go. LOL

So how about having some fun with your Gaboons, Change how you keep them. Better yet, go play with them in nature and see if they compare to your captives.
Heres something important, what your observing it true, you are observing it. In that, your right. Then I have to ask, what does it have to do with the animal?
In most cases how we keep them is totally foreign to the snakes, its just how we keep them. Our methods, our schedules, our temps, etc. Are all based on us.
One major error is how they feed. In nature, there are no schedules. They eat when prey is available and do so as fast and efficient as possible. with the species I have worked with, fossorial types, normally only feed a few times a year, they do that is as short a time as possible, then return to cool temps and conserve energy. 8 times is what I call normal. But then, normal is odd in nature.
So do you think if you kept your Gaboons in a twenty by twenty cage(much smaller then nature) and had hot spots of 110F or more, deep substrate, burrows, logs, etc a pond even, and had food available at all times, would they behave the same as your mega poopers?
I would like to add, I have heard that about many species, including Condros, with that problem and in all cases, it was based on captive conditions, not a natural design. To make it simple, during periods of low activity, snakes do not have anything in their G.I. track, its clean as a whistle, and that is common sense. In most cases, hydration was important to the cause, not exclusive but important. ALso, its normal for natural snakes to emerge, take a dump then go about their daily business. While Gaboons can hold stuff longer, Iam not sure its what they would do normally. As in, its a captive problem. Lastly, holding waste has nothing to do with speed of digestion.
Also, Gaboons are not in question, hognose are and in comparison to kingsnakes.

Frank,
This thread is about metabolism. It evolved into a conversation about metabolism VS digestion. If you are going to make the comparison between hogs and kings, you can make the comparison to anything.

Would gaboons hold their fecal matter in the wild the same as they do in captivity? The answer is yes. There have been studies done on this subject both in field observations and in captivity.
As far as offering them a 110 degree basking area goes, they do not need it nor would they utilize it if it were offered. They do not have those conditions in their natural environment. I also offered them high basking spots that they would never use. Not even after a meal or while being gravid. They completely avoided these basking spots. That is from over 10 years of my own observations and I kept them better and way more successfully than most.

Anyway, me bringing up gaboons was just an example of how metabolic rate and rate of digestion differ and proves that the speed of one is not dictated by the speed of the other.

A couple of things, Why do you say Gaboons are not exposed to temps of 110F in nature, On any sunny day where the air temps are 70F or over, surface temps will exceed 110F. So I am fairly sure they do through out the entire Gaboon range.
Also, Try taking one of your Gaboons outside and letting it crawl on a nice day, The first thing they normally do is take a dump.
Also, how long they hold fecal material has nothing to do with speed of digestion. I believe in most cases its about conservation of water.
I was taking with my son about this and he brought up some interesting points. He keeps hogs and Sand boas and kings.
He mentioned efficiency. Hogs pass fecal often and its very wet and not completely digested. In comparison to Boas who hold fecal pellets longer and is much more solid and dry when deposited.
The OP made the king and hognose comparison Which is what I responded too. In my experience, hogs are messier, crap more often then kings, and like Mark mentioned, at two or three times the rate.
The point is, its odd to talk about rate of metabolism, when using reptiles. As reptiles are ectotherms and use a range of metabolistic rates. .
So in laymens terms, hogs utilize hotter temps, and pass fecals way more then kings and most other colubrids. In the field, there is a huge difference, hogs are active at temps well above kings. In my experience, they utilize exceptionally high body temps. On par, with coachwhips. I use coachwhips as I find them at the same time and same places and they are also out and active at temps well above the other snakes in the area. Which include these common species, mohaves, gophersnakes, kingsnakes, longnose, patchnose, gardersnakes.
I think it comes down to this, Does temps effect metabolism. If you say yes, we agree, if you say no, we do not agree. The does higher metabolism increase digestion speed? If you say no, then I suggest you do some testing. Best wishes

I realize what I am seeing with these two hogs lately - they both usually dig down and lay directly on the heat strip when full of food. The kings - they usually sit on top of the bedding over the heat, or dig down but sit on the periphery of the heat. This is for the current conditions.

All of these snakes are in the same model tub over the same heat tape strip on the same controller setting.

When the hogs get a bit larger, I am moving them to a cage with overhead heat via a ceramic emitter and deeper bedding just to see what they do. The only problem I foresee with deeper bedding is that I will need to replace more bedding (more cost), the hogs soiling the cage so fast.

Hi Mark,

Have you considered a small incandescent or halogen flood instead of a heat emitter? I use 39w (50W replacement halaogen) bulbs and phillips 45 w r20 floods for most of my snakes (Morelia, kings, milks, balls). Have some hogs on the way and plan on setting them up with lamps as well to see how they work the heat. Floods work great and allow you to watch the snakes "interact" with the sweet spot of the bulb and spot heat different sections as needed. Gives you a great visual insight into how they utilize heat. Use floods, not spots though. Just a thought, good luck.

Will

Thanks Will. I never considered a difference between flood and spot, but you are correct. I found a dispersal pattern on the web - there is a difference!

I see more and more LED bulbs and fewer incandescents these days. Have to wonder what will be available 3-5 yrs from now. My house is 75% LED now..

Some years ago, I spoke with a guy who kept western hognose for fun before the more recent hognose craze. His formula for maintenance and breeding success was overhead heat up to 95 deg one one side of the cage. He swore by ventilation (more than for kingsnakes anyway) and available high heat during the day, with nights OK to be cool. He did not care about substrate depth, or substrate for that matter (used newspaper alot).

I just read a caresheet on Extreme Hogs. His approach uses room heat up to 96 deg for at least a few hours each day, then cooling off to 80 at night.

Seems to me that hognose are tough snakes that can probably survive under kingsnake conditions, but they do best in conditions that are at the extreme or very uncomfortable end for many commonly-kept colubrids. I can't wait to try it myself.

Last year, I cooled some kings and some hogs in the same place with the same cages. Like you mentioned.
It was very entertaining, The kings were feeding regularly, and at the same temps the hogs thought they were on the north pole. In those cages, the whole cage is cool with a back heat strip. In the spring, I simply turn on the heat strip in the spring. That did not work with hogs at all. They needed the whole cage heated up before they became active.
Simply put, the hogs needed to be from 85F up to feed properly(daily) the kings are about ten degrees less.
This year will be fun again, as I have more hogs going, hmmmmmmmmm and some kings.

North Pole, ha ha. Yep. See my response to Will.

I can't remember the guy's name, but he got a bit tired of telling people to keep their hogs at higher temps than 82 deg.. and him getting shot down for it. He was an interesting guy in that he had these things figured out way way back before you saw baby hognose at reptile shows.

I'm no expert, geez I have two hogs from this year. But I see such a difference already compared to other colubrids I have kept.

Hognose cover lots of bases. One is shedding, they shed like a crot. Deep deep opaque and for a long period. Thick dark sheds and not very often, no matter how much they grow.
Or getting all pissy when the cage is soiled. They are quick tempered, yet get over it very quickly. I cannot remember having a snake yell at me to clean the cage. Hogs do.
I keep saying, that hognose should not be colubrids, but then colubrids are nothing more then a gathering of species with no where else to go. Yet. My bet is, they will be leaving colubridae sooner or later.
Yes, you are so right, They surely are different then kings. And in a good or bad way. I still can't tell which one it is yet.
When I first came here, I was all excited over how different they were then kings. And asked if anyone kept them in a way that would express that. That's when the wars started. I kept them in deep substrate(major burrowers right? With retes stacks, with over head lites, with bottom heat, etc etc. And in tiny shoe boxes. Oddly, they are different so far. They seem to base their activity on Mass heat. I am still working on that, in both the field and in captivity. Also males take some understanding. Best wishes