Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all-

I will be receiving my first (normal) female western hognose from BHB tomorrow and I'm incredibly excited!

I was just wondering if there is any more info on the leucistics that were produced back in 2001 and then eventually confiscated by the feds. I saw a photo and just love the way they look.

Thanks-
Logan

A friend of mine has them and is breeding them. But I do not pester him about them at all. I think he produced visuals from hets and sold some. Again, I don't pester him.
They are in the private sector and being bred. My guess is, they are playing the stock pile game at this time. Not sure about that, or why we are not seeing more available. That good old marketing plan type of thing.

i think that is a pretty safe guess. i will definitely get a lucy or 2 once they hit the open market.... after about 3 - 4 yrs of the market being flooded that is. lol by then the market should be nice and saturated, and the prices drop down to something i'm willing to pay kind of like the banana balls. lol

jonathan

I think it will be awhile. I think they are going to be a little smart and only let a few out at a time. My bet is, it will be a while before the prices get low enough.
The co dom trait is most likely the worse possible type of trait, as all you need is a male, and a zillion normal females. Your off and running in a year. Fortunately, this is a recessive trait and its much slower and easier to control.

But I am with you, I would love one, but not as an investment. Best wishes

agreed on the co-dominant and recessive part. the thing that levels the playing field imo is how many offspring they produce in a season. bp's you are doing well if you have 10 - 12 eggs from a single female. westerns can double clutch and easily toss 2 - 3x that many.

don't get me wrong, i think they are awesome and i would really like one or 2 personally i would look at it as buying a nice snake for my collection and not as an investment to make a ton of money off of. i've known too many people try that over the years and get burnt. some succeed, and some don't. i play things on the cautious side.

Which makes co dom traits in hognose, very short term. Which means by the time they hit the market, its over in one generation.(two years)
But yes, a white hognose would be great. I would take out and put it on the road and pretent I found it. Over and over again. hahahahahahahaha

" I would take out and put it on the road and pretent I found it. Over and over again. hahahahahahahaha"

lmbo!

Brent has made it public that he should have some for sale this summer for a hefty price.

The thing with the leucistic gene is that it is a dead end gene. All you can do is make a white snake no matter what you breed it with. Co-doms will hold their value much longer than an epistatic gene like the leucistic.

The codoms we currently see can at least be mixed with other genes to produce different combo morphs which stretches the market.

To me a leucistic anything is not an investment morph as nothing could be added to it to change it.

They are cool looking for sure but not the holy grail of any species in my opinion. I think pieds are MUCH cooler and versatile.

Epistasis - the interaction between two or more genes to control a single phenotype
Could you explain a non Epistasis type gene? Thanks

WHile it may be a dead end gene, a lot of folks are coughing up a grip of money to get them. And a lot of buyers are waiting to get them.
While in effect its a dead end gene, its a valuable dead end gene. Some folks are going to make some money with that dead end gene, then other folks are going to make a grip more when it hits street level markets. I am not sure there is anything wrong with that.
Lets take supercondas, When they first popped up, they were out of hand nice. But when you have a pile of them, they are the canvas without the paint. When I first produce albino kings, it was much the same.
But, an all white snake, surely has its own attraction and fascination. Cheers

Hi Gregg,

While I agree it is a dead end gene as far as its value as a combo maker, leucistic snakes have a wow factor that most other morphs cant match. That alone makes them more valuable over the long haul. As their purchase price drops as each pricing tier maxes out, more and more folks will be able to afford them and they will choose leucies over other similarily priced morphs because of that wow factor. The bottom rungs of the pyramid will just keep growing. The same thing occured with leucy bps ten or so years ago. They first hit at, what, $50,000-$60,000, but they are now still selling well at $500-$700. I still easily sell all that I produce because hobbyists want a white ball python (if they keep bps, that is). I think the same will happen with hogs.

While I'm not personally too exited by hog morphs, this particular one hit me hard a long time ago. I will pick up a het male early and produce and keep all of the possible het females I get. As we all know, one healthy male will take care several girls in a season, making a likely turn around on a visual within 3-4 years, depending on husbandry and luck. That's how I started all of my recessive bp projects and I recommend the method to anyone who wants to get into a high end project on the (relative) cheap. Over the short span of 3-4 years, that approach can be highly productive with a much lower initial investment. With an awesome, but dead end gene like a leucistic, money will be made at the beginning and over the long haul if one isn't too offended by the yearly drop in $$ until they eventually stabilize. Thanks.

Will

The Blue Eyed Leucistic ( Lucy) mutation in the reptile world has always been considered the “Holy Grail” of all mutations in EVERY species of reptiles. A simple recessive gene without any pigmentation apart from the eyes. Normally blue eyes but black eyes have been produced in many species. The Lucy Western Hognose is and will always be the Holy Grail of Western Hognose regardless of its genetic possibilities, offspring hatch out with a vibrant pink body color and ski blue eyes, these slowly turn snow white with age and will hold that color through adulthood.

These will be available mid 2015,price and sex to be determined.

Visit Superconda.com for more photos
Thats all I have to say about that !!

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

In simple terms, an epistatic gene is one in which when combined with other genes, it stays dominant. Meaning, if you breed the leucistic gene to anything else you will always wind up with white snakes.

What will a leucistic conda or superconda look like? How about a leucistic red phase? How about the leucistic axanthic, albino, hypo, toffee, and so on? I am gussing they will all be white and maybe with different color eyes.

I also want to point out that we can not compare ball pyhons with hognose snakes. Bps lay on average 6 to 9 eggs per season whereas hogs can lay up to 50 a season if allowed to double clutch.

But if you want to use that as an example, what held its value longer, leucistic or pied ball pythons?

I think I confused by your use of the word combined, recessive genes do not combine, which is why it works like it does. Is "when paired" a better way to understand it. Recessive must be paired with a like gene to express. Non epistatic genes do combine with other genes. I know, its my weird way of seeing things.
Anyway, I am not here to argue about lucey morphs. To each their own. As mentioned by others, White snakes somehow impress. I think white shows better with smooth scales species, like an all white pyro. That would be killer. All black, fairly common in nature, all red, not so much, all yellow, again killer.
Again, its your absolute right to like what you like. That is the great part about keeping , keep something you like, don't keep what you don't like. Theres lots out there.

Lucy's while amazing in thier own rights are a dead end morph in terms of pairing it with any other gene/morph. Very similar to the puma/champange in bps. It totally dominates whatever you try to pair it with.

Will it stop others from buying them, nope.... I would snag one up in a nano second.

What I've noticed over the years in terms of genetics and marketing, is that recessive morphs tend to hold thier value longer than Dom//codom genetics. It boils down to production rates.
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Hi Gregg,

Hogs obviously produce more, so the drop to the stabilized price will be quicker, but it will occur in the same fashion as the leucy bp did. It is so awesome that the market will continue to absorb them. Just as thousands upon thousands of common albino ball pythons are produced every year and still selling at $200-$300, even though they hit that pricing tier many years ago. They are still an awesome morph (even w/o combos)in their own right and continue to sell because the pet buying community can afford them. Leucy w. hogs will do the same thing. I'm absolutely agreeing with you in that it is "dead end", but I think that it is so beautiful that its lack of combo making ability won't matter.

I've been producing pieds and blue-eyed leucistic ball pythons for about ten years and both dropped at about the same rate and are currently going in that $500-$700 range, depending on the amount and quality of white of both (many leucy bps are not pure white depending on parent animals). Thanks.

Will

I think Gregg likes the "morphing" morphs, my guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individuals being the short term goal.
The interesting part is, it doesn't matter. Unless they fail and are not established.
I also think Gregg is not willing to spend that much yet. I don't blame him, neither am I.

Frank, you are 100% correct. I love the morphing morphs. LOL. I like to be able to take something and make it better by working at selectively breeding my animals. I have a few projects that just get better and better with each season. Just when I think I can not make a more beautiful albino, toffee, jag, or tiger, I prove myself wrong every year.

I agree 100% that the leucistics are stunning. Just not break the bank stunning. Can these be an investment animal? Sure they can. You just need to pony up the scratch now while its still new. I am willing to do that for a pair of hets. That's where the real value is when you buy into a project.

I think the time for high end investment is already over for these, too many out there already.
When this type of marketing takes place, there are two places to be, at the top, and at the bottom. Where you get hurt is in the upper to middle tiers. Best wishes

"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

This should prove to be a fascinating reply if you have the nads to answer it.

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?
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Good Question, Really. First and foremost. Because that has been the reality of these type morphs. A fun fact that gets lost in all your argumentative posts is, there are always two important areas, the academic understanding of science, in this case genetic coding and the product. The product is what actually is produced. If you hatch out ten Luceys or ten albinos, or ten melanistics, in each case there will be variation amoungst the ten.
Why is a good question and is a bit complicated. First, genes are not stand alone. That has been proven. They are influenced by other genes(chemically)
And, the fun one, most folks do not understand how genetics works. Simply put, genes do not do anything, other then tell the body what to do(hormones to produce) its those hormones that actually produce a product. Theres a long road between genetic codes and the results.
Also in this case luceys, White is a equal combination of all the colors. Any slight variation in amounts of each color effects the quality of the white that's produced. To crisp up white, you add small amounts of blue or even black. A small example.
It was explained to me that genes send bursts of signals or a defined period of time. Some for short periods, some for long periods, etc. It was also explained to me that genes are not all created equal. That is, they send the same information, just slightly differently.
Whats important to understand, while academic genetics is one thing and is what we have. There are far more arguments amoung genetic PHD's then arguments between you and I. Most of the genetic tools we use at this level are teaching tools. That is a base understanding to get us started. At higher levels of genetic understanding, its not so clear cut.
All in all, its back to this, where we live, It happens. No matter what the genetics are suppose to do, it happens in practice and that is what is important.

Lastly, there is very little known about color and pattern in reptiles and there's good reason. Its not important. The genetics that control structure, that is, heart, lungs, etc. are critical, a minor variation is fatal. Variations in color and pattern are not immediately fatal and is a tool to keeping a species fresh.
Back to the reality, There is variation amoungst individuals in a clutch of such morphs as luceys, The exact reasons why is not important. What is important is, there is variation between individuals of a single clutch. This is the wall between you and I. Your fighting the academic fight(rules and such) While I am a practitioner, I care about what actually happens. I am not a student of genetics and have no need to be. I have no need to understand the rules of genetics, If I have a question about genetics that's important, I consult an expert. Not a herper. Herpers seem to be a be jaded with just about everything. My interest is what the animals do, not the mechanics behind how they do. I am happy to leave that to others. It is fun but one should not let academic data prejudice what we do not understand. All of this is my pea poor explanation of something simple. I could careless about how or why it happens, WHEN we are still attempting to understand it IS happening. The real question is, how cool would lucey melanistic hog be? vs. a lucey evans hypo hog? which most likely will occur in the future and change what is not being called a dead end.

Two post of dribble and "I don't care about genetics." and you still didn't answer the question. So let me repost it for you.

""My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

This should prove to be a fascinating reply if you have the nads to answer it.

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?"
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Stop acting like an idiot, if you don't like what I wrote, too f'ing bad. If you do not understand what I wrote, then ask real questions.
Why don't you just ask someone else. Why do you ask me.
please, if you have information about any of this, put it up or how about you simply link it here so we can all learn.
Simple recessives are easy, co dom genes are easy. If you do not know what you will get by breeding anything already known, just to Hog world and click or their morph maker square.

I understood what you wrote and what you wrote was extremely basic knowledge that any breeder with any experience should already have observed. What I want to know and you failed to answer is about your statement. So since you are an obviously slow learner I will retype this very very slow for you to see if you can understand and justify your statement.

"Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?"
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There is no value in responding to an idiot, which is you. Your only task is to troll and argue. You seem to be stupid, as you fail to LEARN from your naivity.
Your an idiot because your goal here is of no, zero, nada value to anyone, except maybe your insecurity.
You totally fail to understand what's important. In the case here, and most of the crap you argue about, the theory or hypothesis is not important. Whats of real importance is the subject and that is what is in front of us. In this case, the quality of leucistic's.
The reality is, there are different leucistics, some whiter then others. As leucism means the reduction of all pigments. Its not the absents of all pigments, its the reduction of all pigments. there can be all types of luceys.
For a person, me, that works with the subject(reptiles, hognose) I do not take Theory or hypothesis as important or as a guide. I go by the animals. They are the subject. The reality is, in each clutch of leucistics, there is variation.
Further more, how I succeed the way I do, in this case, the first to captive produce Mexican axanthics, is based entirely on that approach. I concentrated, worked hard, and did it.
As far as anyone can tell, You are nothing but BS and do nothing. You have nothing to offer, your no more then a burr in all of our saddles. An irritant no more, no less.
The more you play you stupid games, the more everyone understands just what a piece of nameless crap your are. You stand for nothing, your too Chicken shat to use your real name. Your worthless and of no value. So I will go on doing what I DO. and my hatchling Mexican axanthics are doing great and are a joy to work with, growing like weeds. No thanks to you.

Now try to stay on topic and answer the question instead of your typical name calling rants FR. Everyone knows that what you do when you get busted out for being you.

I and several others that I am talking with are very interested in your answers and how you come up with your "theories" that "Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

So here it is once again FR..

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy "progressing" to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?
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Seriously can you contribute to hognose and not your ego. Thank you so much.
Also you are remiss, you forgot to post the pic of my beautiful gravid Mexican axanthic. No worries, in a month or two. I will post several gravid axanthics. only this time I will put them in gallon jars for you.
I just love the FACT, you think about me so often that you keep my accomplishments, on your favorites bar. Cheers

Thank you FR for showing us your true colors in addition to the fact that you could not support your claim that "Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual" with any sort of proof.

In the end you are nothing more than an argumentative con artist trying to bully everyone on this forum just like you did the lizard forums.

Cheers and Happy New Year FR. Its going to be a very long year for you and lots of fun for us.
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I am not sure what you think any of your crap is suppose to do. In all reality, it does nothing.
What's so funny is, you seem to want to make this a battle. The only problem is we are fighting a different war.
You think you won something playing your stupid silly word games.
I think my victories are when something occurs that makes me happy. Like this.


These are victories and what I enjoy and that drive me. I do thank you for letting me have these victories.

"Seriously can you contribute to hognose..."

I am doing just that by showing the entire community the real FR and most importantly how little you really know about the many details of reptiles.

It tickels me watching you type the idiotic things that you do and more so when you fail to see just how dumb it makes you look when you try to argue your misguided points.

Karma is fun isnt it FR.
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What's so funny is your whole approach is exactly why you fail to do anything. Its academic. You somehow think it takes book, school or even any academic knowledge to do something special.
First context, that is important. The context here is, the keeping and breeding of hognose in captivity. So I ask, what importance are those things I supposedly don't know?
As witnessed here, I choose to learn from the animals, which I have posted here, hognose in nature. After all, hognose were natural long before they became a deli cup item. Simply put, What I see in nature trumps what I READ about captive animals. Mind you, I am aware of what I read. I own what I see in nature.
About what a person knows. That's very interesting.
In our field work, we call in plant guys from the Uni to do a plant survey. We call in geologists to survey the land. We actually learn a little from that, but not much. We consult Dna guys if that is needed. So far, we have had no need to consult geneticist or chemist. Its not been needed, but if we have a need, we sure will consider that.
The number one important thing to know, and constantly remind ourselves is, To observe, and to not prejudice observations. To prejudice means to allow outside influences effect observation and the following report. Which includes all that we thought we knew or read. Our task, to report. That is what you have to know. Nothing there about chemistry or genetics. Pretty simple hey!

Recently I consulted an Academic(think tank guy) multiple PHD's about some of these problems. I mentioned the, not to prejudice an observation, and his eyes lit up. He said, that was the hardest thing to teach(his students are post doc) he said very few learn that. Its the most important lesson in science.
Ok back to this, as a keeper, I know there are variations in clutches in leucistics, variations in albinos, in melanistics, etc. I personally could give a frog the explination behind it. My/our(keepers) interest is, it occurs. That is the reality. The academics behind why is mostly assumption. Nothing wrong with that. if that is all you have. But its not all we have, we have the real thing, the real deal, we have the animals and what they actually do. That's my interest.
Take the punnett square you guys are so fond of. It predicts tendencies, not fact. Its not accurate and is never actually, not in percentage or results. For instance it cannot predict new morphs that occur from breeding known morphs. Which occurs all the time. Yet, its your bible.
The difference between you and I is simple, I research. I compare the results to the academics. If they do not agree, then the academics are required to change to meet the results. You as a casual fan, believe in the academics. That professor I consulted mentioned that. When results/field reports differ from our theories/hypothesis, we are obligated to adjust our theories/hypothesis. What's interesting here is, you make it about right or wrong. There is no place in science for your approach. Yours approach is that of lowly newbie. In fact, your a puke kid, FR your wrong your wrong your wrong. What makes you a punk kid is, its not about me. Its about the hognose. Are they wrong. My interest is ethology, not chemistry or genetics.
Think about this, your right, I know so very little, on a scale of 1 to 100. Our science, we as keepers, and Me as an individual, are all the way up to, nearly one.

I love how you "know" what I think, believe, practice and utilize in my life. You know nothing about me nor who I am. This shows your motives are nothing more than to argue an discredit me and anyone who doesn't drink the FR cool aide of doom and dumbarsness by your name calling rants. Plus it proves all of my points about you are correct. This is what everyone needs to know about you and to avoid you at all costs. This is just one of my contribution to hogs and to all of the posters both old and new.

Nice try but another epic fail FR.

Karma... Ain't it fun sunshine?
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Of course I don't know you. Your too spineless to admit who you are. With that in mind, anyone with any intelligence at all, understands your a idiot troll.
As far as anyone knows, you don't exist. You do nothing. With that in mind, no wonder you behave like you do.

You could have avoided all of this if you would have simply admitted you had no answer and that you were simply talking out of your ars when you were originally questioned.

So let's go back to the beginning and ask it again since you have tried to derail this thread with your bs and name calling defence that you always pull when you're caught.

Here is your profoundly ingnorant post.
"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

So...

"Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?"
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He clearly answered the question on 1/26:

"Whats of real importance is the subject and that is what is in front of us. In this case, the quality of leucistic's.
The reality is, there are different leucistics, some whiter then others. As leucism means the reduction of all pigments. Its not the absents of all pigments, its the reduction of all pigments. there can be all types of luceys."

I've personally observed that in many species that demonstrate the leucistic mutation, the quality of the white has proven to be variable. In some species, this is evident once the visual animals begin to be outcrossed to normals. In others, this variability is demonstrated right from the beginning. Since the onset of this conversation, I've made a point of looking at many more pics of leucy hogs, and to me, some of them have brown or grey on the top of the head. Since I'm not viewing a live animal, I can't tell if it is the lighting, scale density due to age, or just simply traces of pigment, but it makes sense that there is some variability in the quality of the white. If this is the case, then it is a factor that can be altered through selective breeding, similar to what has been done to achieve red, orange, yellow and pink T- albinos. There is always variability within mutations, just as there are within normal types. Selective breeding allows us great control of that.

The question has been answered. Your refusal to accept that fact means that you either have a reading/comprehension deficit, or you are in fact the troll that you appear to be.

Will
(btw, men identify themselves during communications. To not do so is cowardly.)

He is a coward and a troll.
It does not matter if I answer it exactly as he would. He would simply insinuate its wrong and I would somehow fall down. I am not sure what falling down means.
I do believe he's under the impression that I am running for some office(if I get that, I hope it pays well and I do not have to work at all) Or what folks like him think of me. Which I have no concern about.
On a forum like this, its about choices, not just for the animals, but also for the people. And Nasty does not want that. He is actually practicing a "My way or the highway approach". With the problem being, he has no way or method. None that we know of.
While its not busy here, its interesting to play his silly games. He does not use animals and or their progress for his disparaging remarks. He does not use actual examples. His approach is, asking off topic semi questions, in a fill in the blank type of way. Then he makes stupid remarks that I am not right, without ever discussing what is right. He practices amazing human behavior. Educational really.
But none of that is the point. The point is to disrupt. Which is the definition of a troll. How he works these "subjects" Fit the troll description to a Tee. Weirdly, hes not to blame, KS is, they allow him to troll. I guess they are at such a point that any activity is better then none. So it is what it is.
I only wonder when and if, hognose will ever be the subject of his trolling.
What I like the best is, when he posts the pic of my exanthic gravid female. He makes disparaging remarks about keeping her just like 99% of the rest of the hognose keepers do. While he is attempting to insult me. He's insulting them. hahahahahahahahahaha

Its odd, but when I came here, I was interested in hognose behavior, not shoebox behavior. And I am. I also mentioned I am working in the field in that area as well.
It was odd, but only a couple admitted to keeping hogs with anything natural to them. Thanks for those that did.
What makes Nasty an idiot is, In his tiny mind, that meant that I have to keep them only naturally and in no other way. I never mentioned or stated I was going to do that. Never. In fact the opposite. I said I will test many approaches to keeping them, and I have, as seen here.
What makes him stupid is, He and a few others here would ask me, how I think or approach a Subject.(any subject) I am honest and I would offer my opinion. Nasty and friends would take my opinion , or way of thinking about something and twist it, then take that as I demand all to think or do the same. Which is passed stupid, its insane. I could give a flying dog crap what others do, that is, unless they are doing something really well and it interests me.
In effect, what pea's him/them off is, I am not part of their Borg(intertwined commun) I do not stand for their way of thinking. I don't. I posted right off, I am interested in animal stuff, not how streamlined humans can make keeping herp. And in particular, how they can take everything natural away from the animals and somehow make it work. We all already understand, we can indeed keep hognose in a little box and have them reproduce.
My only opposition to shoebox keeping is, its so very hard to learn anything about the animals. So that requires a "caresheet"/recipe to make them work. Which is mindless fun. You do not have to know anything about the animals to keep and breed them, just follow instructions. I like thinking, so I will ALSO keep animals in cages that teach and entertain me.

What makes him a child is, his effort are to show that I do not "know" everything. Which to me is funny. Lets see, I do lots of field work, I do captive testing. Which is interesting, to me, that means I am ASKING questions, its not about "knowing" I ask, simply because I do not know. I do not drive hundreds of miles, day after day to learn what I already know. I do not build all manner of cages to learn what I already know. I do those things to learn what I do not know.
What is so funny is, he wants to make it a penis thing. But again he fails. As an exhibit fabricator. If mine is too small, I would simply make a bigger one, Heck, I could make one that would not fit in my suburban. I could make one that you would have to ship in pieces, BY TRAIN.
Which is why he hates me. Hes restricted, hes to stupid to understand any of this. submit to the Borg, you cannot refuse, you will be assimulated. I will not. I will continue to not know, and to attempt to learn. Until I die. So yes, that this has been said a thousand times is even more proof in his mental condition. All in all, I just wish he would post some hognose stuff. After all, they are more interesting then we are. And the subject of this forum.
What chaps my hide is, with all Nastys vast knowledge of what I do not know, why on earth isn't he doing anything??? Where is the proof of knowledge. Wheres the application. It appears all he's got is a mouth hole. A dirty mouthhole

Wow, first you name call like a child when you get busted out for being a hypocrit, then you threaten to beat me up because employed your method questioning you on everything, now you're back to name calling and wanting play with my penis.

Dude, you need serious help.
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I call you names because you have a long history of asking to be called those names. You act like all those names I call you. You deserve them.
If you had a name, were a real person. Actually did something, it would be different. But you have no name, no brain, no nothing. Wait, I now understand why you act like you do.
There is no point to your approach. If indeed I was dumb as a stone, that would indeed bring up the question, why are you so afraid of me? And Why do I do so well in the field and in captivity with the subject, hognose(colubrids).
Whats so funny, your too stupid to understand this is a field of applied knowledge. Its the application that is crucial, not what you know or think you know. I would be happy to know Zero, and have exceptional results.
In the old days, one antagonist said, you know nothing about monitors, your just really really good with them. hahahahahaha I laughed my arse off. The reason is, its being good with them that's my concern. Not thinking I know something.
you somehow think your goofball academic(Off topic to this forum) means anything. I will ask you again, Lets throw down. Lets throw down with the subject of this forum, HOGNOSE. Mind you, I am new, but I will throw down with you any day all day.
So bring it man, hognose. What have you done, besides putting them in tarantula cages?

"Lets throw down with the subject of this forum, HOGNOSE. Mind you, I am new, but I will throw down with you any day all day.
So bring it man, hognose."

OK Mr I keep them in tuperware with less than a 1/4 inch of substrate, lets "thrown down" as you put it. Which us just another attempt by you at being a bully there FR.

Lets start right here since you haven't answered it yet....

"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?
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Your the one attacking me, self defense is not bullying. Get real.
All I am attempting to do is make it about hognose. put it this way, If your even doing normal with your animals, you cannot lose. At least you would be sharing.
That reality that escapes your shrunken brain is, You asked me my opinion and approach, I answer you, then you somehow think I am forcing you/anybody to do anything. Which is false. When I respond to you, or anyone here. I do assume your a normally functioning stable adult. that I was so wrong about. Your not. Simply put, why would you care what I do or say. The world is full of silly people who say odd things. And your just one of them
The only reason you "could" feel bullied is, My opinions and related results have merit. What is odd is, my approach is only about making captive life better for the snake. That you fight that tooth and claw makes it all about YOUR SELF ESTEEM. In truth even if I am wrong on a point, the effort is to benefit the snake. Yet, all you care about is your weak ass self esteem.
And yes, to keep a snake in a sweater box with nothing natural is not about the snake, its all about our convinence. That you cannot except that, makes you the names I call you.
In this case, all you do is attack me, if I am off base, then show me a better way. Sadly that is why you act like you do, your helpless to offer something good muchless better. Your indeed worthless.
And yes, I fully understand, your goal is to force me to call your names, as I said, I will be your huckleberry.

Nasicus, you are starting to come off here as flat weird. But not in a good way. In a skin-crawling way.

Well FR, I played your "throw down" game and you still refused to answer.

Is it because you got caught saying somehting so ridiculously stupid yet again?

If you were even close to being right why hasnt any of your fan club offered up supporting data?

Thats a rhetorical question becasue its already been answered. See sentence number 2....

So once again FR,

"Lets throw down with the subject of this forum, HOGNOSE. Mind you, I am new, but I will throw down with you any day all day.
So bring it man, hognose."

OK Mr I keep them in tuperware with less than a 1/4 inch of substrate, lets "thrown down" as you put it. Which us just another attempt by you at being a bully there FR.

Lets start right here since you haven't answered it yet....

"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?
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Your a delusional troll. The game is hognose, not you or me. You never ever talk hognose, just what a bad bad man I am. And I am a bad man, I made you guys think and that must have caused you so much pain.
Now talk about hognose. How about some of your field experience. That would be nice, thank you

Well FR, I played your "throw down" game and you still refused to answer but continue to hurl your useless name calling rants.

Is it because you got caught saying somehting so ridiculously stupid yet again?

If you were even close to being right why hasnt any of your fan club offered up supporting data?

Thats a rhetorical question because its already been answered. See sentence number 2....

So once again FR,

"Lets throw down with the subject of this forum, HOGNOSE. Mind you, I am new, but I will throw down with you any day all day.
So bring it man, hognose."

OK Mr. ?I keep them in tuperware with less than a 1/4 inch of substrate", lets "thrown down" as you put it. Which us just another attempt by you at being a bully there FR.

Lets start right here since you haven't answered it yet....

"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?
-----

Could you please post pics of your hognose in their cages, thank you. And could you post pics of hognose in nature. Again, thank you.

Well FR, I played your "throw down" game and you still refused to answer but continue to hurl your useless name calling rants.

Is it because you got caught saying somehting so ridiculously stupid yet again?

So once again FR,

"Lets throw down with the subject of this forum, HOGNOSE. Mind you, I am new, but I will throw down with you any day all day.
So bring it man, hognose."

OK Mr. ?I keep them in tuperware with less than a 1/4 inch of substrate", lets "thrown down" as you put it. Which us just another attempt by you at being a bully there FR.

Lets start right here since you haven't answered it yet....

"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?
-----

heres the deal, you are allowed to be a pest, that's fine, but most of the time where theres a pest like you, the attempt is to reveal real information on the subject, hognose. In your case, your nothing but a pest.
yes I understand you know have no way to relate using herps(hognose) as the subject, and Yes I understand, your only concern is this being a social club and not anything to do with hognose. Sadly I did not write the purpose of this forum, Someone at KS did. Its about hognose, not about me or you, personality wise. In this case, its kinda like two social nitwits fighting, Ok, I agree, that has to be funny, but has nothing to do with hognose. To throw down means in a hognose area, not in a social nitwit sense. Which makes you a ignorant piece of hognose shat. See, I used hognose and humor and called you a name. hahahahahahahahahahaha I multi-tasked hey!

Oh by the way, rumor has it, no, its common knowledge, you do not have a penis. At least that's whats going around.

"My guess is, Luceys will also progress but to a lesser degree. a bone white, blue eyed individual"

So...

"Can you please explain to everyone and show an example of a single gene Lucy progressing to a more pure bone white with blue eyes?"

His post below does not answer the above question as you said. Read it again and try to understand it. He failed to show or explain how a single gene Lucy will progress. Yes there are variations within a clutch but that's not what he spouted off. I didn't ask for the definition of leucistic and everyone already knows that there are several types of Lucy's. But again that's not the what he spouted off and it's not the answer to these simple questions.

He clearly answered the question on 1/26:

"Whats of real importance is the subject and that is what is in front of us. In this case, the quality of leucistic's.
The reality is, there are different leucistics, some whiter then others. As leucism means the reduction of all pigments. Its not the absents of all pigments, its the reduction of all pigments. there can be all types of luceys."
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...you sucked me into your silliness one more time. I told myself I would not get drawn into your nonsense and ya' got me again. Shame on me. Good on ya, whatever your name is.

Will

If it's a name that you're after simply choose any from FRs name calling rants and run with it.

I find it pretty silly of you two to be reduced to that as your arguement.
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Your a spineless coward, and that does fit. What are you ashamed off. If folks knew who you are, would laugh you off the face of the earth. Why are you so afraid.
If you cannot put a real person to your words, then your words are meaningless and worthless. A sham, a fraud, a nobody. And that sir is the truth.
You see, a name would add or subtract meaning. Possibly give merit etc.
The reality you will never admit who you are because in your own heart and mind, your acting. or are you a second personality, one of many you have????

More name calling FR, really???

Is that what you have been reduced to FR?

How old are you anyways, something like 70 with the tantrums of a child?

I love how you think you know things about me when in all actuality you know nothing.

Keep reaching and grasping at straws FR and I will happily continue to pick you apart showing everyone on here what kind of mindless driveling fool you are. Keep up the good work FR, you are making this way to easy.
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Of course we call you names, you have none. If you had a name, you would actually be somebody, but your not.
By the way look up bullying. Its what your doing to me. You see, its you that attack posts with your silly BS.
. Rationalizations for such behavior(bullying) sometimes include differences of social class, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, appearance, behavior, body language, personality, reputation, lineage, strength, size or ability. You have none of those, and are afraid to say who you are, for fear of ridicule.
You keep bullying me on several of those. Yet no one bully you there is nothing to bully. Your nothing but fart gas.
I do thank for causing me to look up all these things, one day, I am going to be pretty smart.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If we met in person and you acted like you do, And I resorted to beating the shat out odd you(even at my advanced age). That would not be bullying, it would be a simple arse whopping. If I kept seeking you out and whopping your arse over and over, that would be bullying. Do I have that right?
Sadly, we are both insane, you for being such a stupid shat, and me for thinking its funny and playing your silly game. But then, its winter, soon there will be lots of hog stuff to talk about. I will be doing that. But you will only talk about bullying and me. You love me don't you. Wanta kiss?

...that this individual sits around, probably in his mom's dark basement, at his computer, likely flanked by a half empty bottle of hand lotion and a crusty, starched tube sock, and waits patiently for you to post something??? I mean, he posts nothing of value, and nothing at all unless it's in response to you. I'd be willing to bet he has an old monitor talk of yours on tape loop, so it just repeats over and over so he can always hear your voice. Sir, you have yourself a full fledged, four alarm stalker. Yikes...

Will

Yikes, I will never wear tube socks again. I suspect Nasicus cannot come within 500 of a public school or a playground.

That's what I was thinking, how did Will come up with that? hahahahahaha I had a great day, went in the field and observed a grip of crots, some big ones too, a grip of gilas, some lyresnakes and a wonderful tort. Got some pics. Tube socks huh?

I was going for the image of a socially awkward, obsessive compulsive teenager with a misplaced love/hate obsession for our friend Frank. I scanned my memory of awkward, teenage angst movies and that is the scenario I came up with. I think I nailed it, however disturbing it may be.

Will

As you may know, all these types of places have similar trolls.
I am a fan of our local College basketball team. Long story.
As of now, they are #6 in the nation.
Anyway, they have a fan site with a forum. There is a troll there as well. I do not post much there as I am not skilled or actually know much about basketball. I wrestled in high school and college. Same season.
Anyway, heres a response to that troll by another person on that site.
He's a twit.

He's suitable for vegetarian consumption.
This basketball troll is somewhat more advanced then ours, he has a hundred different handles and often carries on a thread talking to himself. Of course, most posts about him are X rated. This was a nice one. Fits our troll

When debating from a position of knowledge, having done considerable research on a subject, and your opponent (FR) is basing his entire argument on rhetoric or “talking points,” it won’t take too long for me or anyone to blow through FRs entire argument. Once that’s done, he has no place to retreat. Human nature and ego will usually prevent him from admitting that his position may be flawed. After all, he has to be right.

Rather than admit a mistake, when his argument is blown away, FR resorts to “Plan B” – the personal attack. If a victory cannot be won on the battleground of knowledge, FR must try to make his opponent out to be defective. That’s when the name calling starts. It’s an attempt to save face and resurrect his dead argument which fails him every single time.
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Is there no possible way for you to be constructive or helpful to this forum?
I had this friend a long time ago, we would go to bars and he would almost always find a happy couple out having a few drinks, Then he would go kiss the girl or pester her, in order to have her boyfriend bash his face in. He did that all the time, you remind me of him. You will do anything to get your face bashed in. Nice way to live?

Hi Frank,

I have seen a few pics, and all that I have seen look pretty white. Does your friend who is working with these see variation amongst them in terms of white? I hate to keep bringing up bps, but even though the pics that were first shown off of the various leucy types were indeed white, once they got out there, most turned out to have some yellow or pearl striping and yellow blotching. Is there variation in this type or are they pure white from the get go? With bps, one can produce pure white, blue eyed leucies, from very light lesser platinums and very light mojaves (as I do), but they are in general, extremely variable. There can be great variation in even single gene, recessive morphs (your axanthics for example), but if these leucistic hogs are pure white, I guess the point is moot. I admittedly haven't seen many of them, so I don't know. Thanks.

Will

Beauty

Except in ball pythons where blue eyed lucy is co-dom.

As is black eye lucy.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus