Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi im wondering how morphs work. Like if you breed albinos for example over time with selective breeding can you make extreme red albinos over time? Thanks for yur time
-Travis

Yes, is the answer, but its not a direct answer. If you have normal hognose, they normally are not red. Some locals have reddish individuals. You can line breed those and make redder individuals.
If you have normal albinos, you can out breed them to red hognose, and back breed and intergrade the red into that normal albino line. Then selectively breed those enrich the quality of red.
These days there are all manner of Albinos already out there. I have both normal albinos and Red albinos, that I picked up at shows or from breeders. With hogs these days, they may look like one thing and carry genes for all manner of morphs. Recessives or carriers are commonly sold as normal. I don't think to many breeders are breeding for normal.
I hope someone gives you a better answer. Mine is pretty basic.

Travis,

"Like if you breed albinos for example over time with selective breeding can you make extreme red albinos over time?"

Regular albinos will not reproduce Extreme Red Albinos. Extreme Red Albinos are two distinct genetic lines, Extreme Reds (a dominant gene) and Albino (a recessive gene). The only Extreme Red Line was originated by Justin Mitcham. Unless you are lucky enough to collect red animals from the same H.n. gloydi locale that Justin bred and refined to exhibit his superior reds, than no you can't reproduce the Extreme Red Line.

Best case scenario is that you could possibly make a new line of red with a lot of aelective line breeding.

It should be noted that the validity of the H.n.gloydi subspecies has been heavily disputed and many authorities no longer recognize it as there is not enough of a sufficient difference from H. n. nasicus to warrant a seperate subspecies.
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Nasicus,
Learn a little history and the actual genetics behind the snakes you are talking about before you make posts like that.

Firstly,
"extreme red" is NOT a dominant gene. It is polygenic and not a very strong one. That is why you see all these orange "extreme reds".

Secondly,
Contrary to popular belief, Don Shores actually originated the extreme red line, not Justin. There are red lines that far surpass Justins extreme line like Brad Chambers red lines and the Phoenix red line not to mention Don Shores Extreme line.

It is quite easy to outcross and produce reds and red albinos that will either line up with or be even better than the extreme line from Justin. It can be done in just a couple of seasons. I did it in 3. My red line does not have any "extreme red" blood. They are the result of outcrossing Brad Chambers red line into the Shanklin albinos.

Lava line red.

Lava line tiger

Lava line tiger albino

Hi Gregg,

Thanks for the clarification. I can't view those pics though, is it me? Very interested in seeing the lavas. Thanks.

Will

Hey Gregg,

According to the guy that started the line, Justin, they are a dominant trait thereby making eveything I said genetically accurate unless you are calling Justin a liar???

"Extreme Reds and Purple Lines Pic2 Pic3:

(dominant line trait) These are super enhanced reds I derived from gloydi localities that have been bred and refined to exhibit superior reds"

Your reds are nice but they are not Extreme Reds from Justin lines. You cant reproduce his line without his genes. Just like we cant reproduce your reds without your genetic line. Which is what the OP asked.

Extreme Red Albino Female...

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Its so nice when you talk about snakes. It opens up why you are like you are.
What Gregg said was accurate according to his experience. He never called Justin a lair. He offered his report, based on his experience. You have a most unscientific system of believing in people and not data. So anything said is automatically an attack on a person. Greggs report was no such attack or insinuation. You put it there. He offered a report based on HIS experience.
There was no name calling in any way.
As a newbie this is my take, there were indeed several lines of "Red" westerns. These were developed in different ways, by different people. The above RED was produced some 30 years ago by some fella in Calif. I have no idea who he was, nice snake for the time.
The development of lines is not static, its fluid. that is, all of us seek to improve upon what we have. Its often done by out breeding to include new(other) genetics. Or done without involving existing lines, completely new genetics, all of which has a goal of producing RED or REDDER hognose. Your idea that genetics is consistent is well, your false belief.
An example would be me. Last year I observe two red Mexican hognose, a sexual pair, If I had any brains, I would have caught them and produced a new line of RED Mexican hogs. To be clear, those two were in a population of hognose that are NOT RED. I observed aprox 5 red colored hognose out of 365 individuals. It would have been, Retes line reds. I think next time I find one or a pair, I will do that.
So, no one called anyone a lair. you simply have a tendency to make it about people and not about the subject, HOGNOSE.
Just to throw sand, your saying that Justins line is a hybrid line?

One of the problems we have here with my axanthics is this. Some of you think, you know what they are, based on the one or two founders of western hogs. You seem to want to tell me what I have.
The problem I have with that is, that is unscientific. You nor I have any idea as to what I have, as their genetics is new to captivity. Current results and future results will determine, what you assume you already know. Because my exanthics have no relationship with existing western axanthics, there is no reason what so ever, that any of us(you) would know anything. Any prediction would be a simple assumption.
The unusual part is, As I mentioned many times, I could careless what they are called. My hopes are and so far they have been fulfilled is, they produce a range of axanthics so I/we can pick and choose and create some appealing variations. Just as keepers of "RED" hognose have done. So far, I have two types of axanthics, super lite ones, and super dark ones. My goal is to make the darker type darker and the liter type, liter. I could careless what the avenue is, as long as it gets me there. Again, this is how keepers approached Red hognose, do what ever you have to do to achieve redder more appealing hognose. And that is being done. Its not about a Justin line or a Shores line.

Part of the problem is that nasicus believes what he reads to be gospel, but the larger issue is that he can't comprehend the subtle semantics (meaning) of language. From the context of the message, the OP was simply asking if red color can be enhanced in wild type and albinos by selective breeding. A question which was answered correctly by all of the people who can derive meaning from context - yes, absolutely! Because the word "extreme" was used, which is understood by the whole world to mean very intense, nasicus ASSUMES that the OP is talking about this particular morph which he obviously covets.

Will

As you can tell, I have no idea as what how it thinks. I don't want to know.
its conflict is not about me or science or genetics or chemistry. It's conflict is humanity. It fails to understand human nature. And in a very simple form such as with herps.
Its not about genetics, if a snake has pretty colors, we want some without color, albinos/axanthics, If they have little color, we want to add some. If they are all black, we want a white one, if they are all white, we want a black one. etc etc etc. Its simple human preference. Heck, If its small, we want a big one, if they are big, we want a small one. The explanation of genetics is funny, Its merely a bag of tools. I don't care what you call that tool, as long as it works for the task at hand. The names are secondary. While He(don't know who he/she is) points to some name, I will point to that tool and say, give me that one. Which is exactly equal to calling that tool a 14mm open end wrench. Give me THAT ONE! So while he/she/it is dinking around with what whatever it thinks is important, I just turbo charged the dishwasher(tool time, a really funny skit). "It" is academic, that is, aside from the subject. Hand me that wrench, I am going to turbo charge the garbage disposal next. So while hes so concerned with academics(aside from, not applicable) we, you and I will be turbo charging Mexican hognose.

I am not going to go into if I think Justin is a liar or not. However, if he is claiming the red coloration in hogs to be a dominant gene, he is quite mistaken. It is, like most natural color variation, a polygenic trait. It is far from dominant. If it were dominant, you can breed it to any hognose and make extreme reds. However, this is not the case. Learn you genetics buddy.

Not defending him, I don't know him or about him. But its common for the originator of a trait to be the last to know. As there is a tendency to work within the genetic line. To him and his combinations, it may have been dominate occurring, but not dominate genetically. If that makes any sense. Lets see, most breeders have a line, they start and produce offspring, they take the next step and breed the offspring, as you say the nicest ones. Then again, at some point that whole line is related and refined. So breeding a third generation back to a first generation will still produce reds. Except when you out cross to an unrelated line. Then its polygenic. Again, I am only attempting to figure out how folks are going about this.
I do have a question Gregg, whats your opinion on what I mention to Will. When reds are not a normal phenotype on my site, and in fact a rarity. They most likely are not polygenic?

It never ceases to amaze me at just how simple minded you guys are. It is very obvious that you do not understand the original question nor the topic of genetics.

Good luck with that, LOL
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I am simple minded, so what was the correction????? Anybody and their bunghole can say what you just said. The point is to back it up.
If by chance(very slim) your right, I/we could have the opportunity to learn. But then you again offer nothing.
I only offered a scenario where the original producer, could a make the statement he did, by having a line of related animals, therefore in his case, the red trait is dominate. Gregg, stated that Red, is not a dominate trait.
Gregg has presented lots and lots of evidence that he has lots of experience with hognose genetics. You on the otherhand have presented nothing of importance, ever. Just that, everyone else is wrong and your right, without ever presenting what is right and how it came about.
Your constant babbling about how wrong others are, without ever presenting what "could" be right, is what makes you worthless. You never give us low lings the chance to learn.

Frank,
That is a spectacular red! What ever became of it? It has a hypo-ish quality in my eyes, no black boarders. About the reds at your site, are there 'tweeners - reddish brown ones - or there basically brown hogs, super rare axanthics and super rare reds? Reds can be recessive of course like the blood boa, that would be pretty unusual - and awesome. This of course is academic however until you get out there this spring and get yer mitts on a few!

Will