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Hello,

I am curious to know if anyone is noticing the presence of single post cloaca scales instead of the usual split scales in either their captive born or wild caught stock eastern chain kingsnakes(or any species of kingsnake for that matter).

If so, do eastern chain breeders or any kingsnake breeders view the presence of single scales as normal/variation, or is this the first sign of inbreeding or a mutation? I have seen chain kingsnakes that have perfect split scalation and a few that have single scales. In the picture attached, this eastern chain (captive born) has 17 single post cloacal scales before they split for the remainder of the tail.

I am new to breeding them, and I want to know if one phenotype is preferred over another.

Thanks!

They are called caudels and if divided, subcaudels.(how I was taught)
Also, its very normal for snakes that normally have subcaudels(divided) to have a number of undivided as well.
There are also colubrid species like Longnose that normally have undivided caudels.
Most Crotalus have caudels, undivided, but also have some divided.
I would imagine your could breed for that trait and see what happens.

Hi Frank,

Thank you for responding. Would it be possible to contact you and talk about this? I have a lot of questions about this situation. Is there a way I could get/or give contact info?

Thanks,
Chris

This probably has to do with the inter-breeding that a few of the bigger king snake breeders have been practicing for a number of years. These despicable self serving people - who are very active right here on kingsnake.com - have interbred all the king snake species, turning them into pretty, and pretty worthless, morphs. They've turned these interesting snakes into worthless lab rats.

I won't argue the species or sub-species mixing.

What I wonder is, if you take some locality kingsnakes out of their habitat and place them in captivity, then whatever specifics that has shaped them over many generations in their old habitat are now changed.

What I am saying is theoretically, even locality animals kept in captivity and bred over many generations - the offspring will eventually might be different in some way from their great great grandparents. I think they are all lab rats once in captivity to some degree. Of course, they will retain certain identifiable color/pattern.

Anyway, I agree that just for the pure interest in these animals, keeping like kinds with like kinds is the best approach. But preserving the original integrity of a wild animal after many generations in captivity might not be completely doable but is certainly "better" than mixing (again, just for our interest in these animals). Anyone wish to comment please do.

Yea, its really a shame. You can buy any species or subspecies of king snake now and almost be assured your buying some sort of mixed mutt that is essentially worthless - like the $2.00 guppy in the pet store.

Of course the guy(s) who crossed all these species in order to get a few "pretty" snakes that gullible people would snap up made a few bucks. They just have to live wight he knowledge that they screwed up one very cool thing - American king snakes.

But they are not the kind of people who care about these things.

Wow, what a weird attitude. Have you ever considered that All snakes have the same value. They all think they are the best and their life is as valuable as anyother snake.
You do understand, in nature, they have no such rules, they cross and hybridize. They do not have a name, they do have a local and habitat. The rest, like names are made by us. And are pretty much arbitrary.
In my opinion, your approach is as deli cup as it gets. But your right, in captivity, after a generation or two, it does not matter. As even with pure localities, keepers keep the pretty ones and soon they look nothing like the founders. A different kind of selection. So I do agree with you, we suck, and that includes you and I.

Whats with all the prejudice and hate. As mentioned above, its very common in nature. So why do folks jump to stupid conclusions. Then rant about inbreeding. I have to tell you wild snakes INBREED, its what they do. But, that is not the point, Its normal in nature. As is divided ventrals.
When doing field work, We look for individual differences in scalation. And that is one of those areas. The ventrals and caudals are unique to each individual.
This is not about you specifically Mark, but before accusations get tossed around, folks need to know what normal is.

I take issue with the idea that a snake is somehow "worthless" simply because it's the product of atypical breeding...or, obversely (e.g.) - how a "Normal" Ball Python has "less value" (other than what it commands in the marketplace) than some hard-to-find morph that fetches thousands of dollars.

Suppose a hurricane hits the Florida peninsula, a Kingsnake there somehow finds refuge on floating debris, and drifts for a week or two to the Pascagoula refinery in southeast Mississippi, where a population of holbrookis is known to reside. Let's say it mates with one. Are the offspring "worthless?"

In those natural occurring examples you do have something - you ave a naturally occurring anomaly. But thanks to the unscrupulous breeders here if you buy a king snake - any where - its likely been crossed out so many times as to be nothing recognizable at all. Just some worthless multi-hybrid exactly like white mice or feeder guppies.

And this was accomplished so a few greedy people could make a few bucks. Thats pretty sad. It wasn't that long ago that when you saw a king snake in a collection, o at a show for sale, you knew it was a California King snake, or an Eastern Chain King snake. These days the only thing you could say is that its sorta yellowish grey.

Simple minded human greed has ruined this entire, once fascinating species.

You seem to have a burr under your saddle. The problem is, you have no horse and no saddle.
First, this is the United States, its suppose to be a nation of free enterprise. Its suppose to be about making money. Its suppose to be a country of Entrepreneurs.
Heres the reality, YOU have choices, there are more pure any species you want, and morphs and crosses/hybrids, then ever. You have a choice. You have lots of choices. If your not smart enough to make a choice, then get smarter.
If you feel there is not enough choices for local specific, then get to work and you work with them. But to whine like a baby that others are making, or attempting to make money. Well, it does not reflect well on you. What your doing is un-American.

I agree with all of you to some extent, but fortunately there are natural snakes living in the wild that have not been messed with and the natural diversity of species, subs and forms will, by definition, remain correct for their kind. on the other hand, looking at all the artificial dog breeds, for instance, most would agree that each breed has it's unique value and interest, even though few look like the natural Wolves or other canines they came from.
Personally, I don't like the idea of crossing species for fun or profit and I find the results generally unappealing. This goes for the albino strains as well, which, due to breeders, have gone from a rare curiosity to something no longer interesting, to Boring or even sad.

Do you look at the classifieds? There are a lot of "locale specific" kings being sold, if that's what your discriminating taste demands. In the ads right now I see "Jasper County", "Palm Beach", "Dade County", "Currituck County", "locality scarlet kings" . . . so . . . ???

I really like the "locality" breeding idea. I think it adds value. Trouble is, how do you really know that the snake you are buying is really bread from that locality and not being passed off as "locality", to get a higher price?
Yesterday I was in a local reptile store; they had a bunch of obviously hybridized Leonis X Triangulum that were being sold as "Variable Kings" the clerk denied knowledge, saying someone local brings them in. Some looked pretty cool, but I didn't want an artificial hybrid. There is enough variation in Nature to keep up with.
I am an entomologist and I see the same practice in insect rearing, mostly Lepidoptera, They charge more money and some people buy them, but why? My 2 cents.