Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I"m very new to Rosy (Desert) Boas, although I have decades of King, Milk & Rat snake experience. As a keeper of reptiles, I'm uncommon in several ways:

1. I keep animals as Animal Companions, not as Pets, and I handle & interact with them often.

2. I set up vivariums to match natural habitat as closely as possible. My focus is on animal well being, as opposed to a focus on convenience or sales. In each vivarium I use a large salad bowl as a soak pool, concealed & covered, with purified water. I"ve NEVER had mite problems.

Vivarium Features: Three levels of usable space. Design is precisely engineered to simulate nature, while maximizing accessories & space. Branches are highly strung to leave a clear view of the bottom accessories & rock wall. Water pool in left corner > open space with cacti > boulder pile in right corner covers 33% of the space.

Branches: Nine - forming full-circle, front & rear loop. Basking spot is open, warming rocks below. Three levels of thermal graduation.
Driftwood: Two, Ironwood, Hidden Canyon root.
Plants: Fourteen fake species, two live species (moss & lichens).
Hide Spots: Two, one at each end.
Rocks: Twelve - mostly basalt & volcanic rocks of dark brown, gray & black.

3. I feed live. My snakes all prefer to be hunters, not scavengers. (Just curious: How many of YOU prefer frozen foods over live, fresh food??)

4. I don't breed, so I can focus on just two snakes with two setups.

When I got my Rosy Boa, I worried about Regurgitation rumors, too, but my common sense told me that in the wild, most snakes live near a water source. Why then, should I take out my water?? I left my soak pool in her vivarium to experiment. She has fed once so far, on a small hopper, with no regurgitation.

My Rosy Boa also seems to be quite uncommon in several ways:

1. She is often daytime-active. In only one month, I've seen her active during all hours.
2. She LOVES to climb! With 9 branches in her setup, I *seldom* see her on the ground.
3. She prefers to bask under an overhead basking bulb - day or night. If not directly under it, she is usually partially concealed near it.

Although there are many categorical truths regarding animal species, the Individual matters. There have always been individuals that defy typical behavior and are very unique, and I suspect that there always will be if Nature is allowed her normal evolutionary course.

Don in Vancouver, WA
Network Engineer, 55 (Explorer, Discoverer, Herpetologist, Naturalist, Writer)

1.0 Lampropeltis getula splendida
1.0 Terrapene carolina carolina
1.0 Terrapene carolina triangus
0.1 Lichurana trivirgata trivirgata
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I'll address each one of your statements from a different point of view:
1. Handling reptiles: Rosies are secretive snakes. They happen to tolerate handling well as a general rule. However, handling does not benefit the snake, nor does it do harm. What I am saying is, regular handling is fine but unnecessary as far as the snake's well-being is concerned. Perhaps it can give the snake some exercise.

2. Rosyboas in the wild generally occupy rocky terrain in arid or semi-arid regions. They occupy rodent burrows in and around rocky outcrops with some exceptions. They use the rocks to thermoregulate - the rocks warm up in the sun, the snake lays up against the rock in a crevice where the snake is mostly concealed from predators. Sometimes a rosy will stick its head out of a burrow or crevice to warm up its head on the warm ground or even in the sun. The head warms the blood, and the warm blood runs through the snake's body to warm it up.

In captivity, if the keeper can provide what the snake is looking for - warmth while hiding, a range of desired humidity, etc, then what it looks like is not important. Functional beats naturalistic. Rosies will climb anything in a cage to look for an escape. In the wild, they are in burrows or in the rocks when they are not on the move for other reasons. Alot of prime rosy habitat does not have much in the way of branches anyway.

3. I agree with the live food practice. I feed f/t most of the time for my convenience and for constant availability. But live is likely more nutritionally sound for the snake. In the wild, rosies are often nest rodent nest raiders. That is, they often consume nestlings of rats and other rodents in their habitat.

I'll continue next post..

4. In the wild rosies can live in some areas where standing water is rather rare. Rosies adapt by conserving moisture. They avoid drying conditions. For example, warming up under rocks or in burrows is less drying than warming up in the open air. Crawling at night is less drying than during the middle of the day.

If the cage is prone to drying, like with the use of overhead lights and a screen top, then constant water in the cage may not be an issue for even a rosyboa. For a more closed cage, the use of a water bowl should be limited or the water bowl small.

One thing is certain - it is far better for a keeper to err on the side of providing water less often than it is to end up with too much humidity for too long and have the snake regurgitate. Not drinking for a week is nothing for a rosy - no problem. Regurgitating on the other hand is traumatic and leads to real issues, like a reduction of good bacteria in the gut leading to further regurges. Given the two scenarios, it is far better to offer water less often. I have been keeping rosies a long time. Regurgitation is preventable, and it is the last thing you want to happen especially when it is caused by the fallacy that snakes need water 24/7.

This was a good post by you, as it is a seed for discussion. One last comment:
Keeping one rosy is one thing. It is when a keeper breeds them and attempts to have the results be nice fat healthy babies that attention to detail is important. One learns alot that way. I can tell you from experience that the best results for me have occurred in setups different than setups one often sees on youtube with all of the decorations. A cage where a rosy hides much of the time is IMO better. A snake on the move all of the time is either hungry or wants to breed or is trying to find better conditions. When you have a cage where the snake is active only when hungry or looking for a mate but is otherwise hiding - that is when you know the cage is more effective.

I've seen you post often in the past, and I sense that you aim to help spread useful knowledge on this forum. I'm grateful for your reply.

One of my lifetime dilemmas is that I'm often misperceived. My thought processes sometimes differ from those of other persons, or, I may be looking at the scenario from a broader or deeper perspective. I'm much more experienced & savvy than I seem to be. (I"ve personally explored much of western North America, and I've studied & researched both the natural & social worlds around me for decades.)

I'm very aware of Rosy Boa general habits, and of their subterranean tendencies. I was mainly pointing out two things:

1. Water in my setup did not result in regurgitation after feeding- as I expected.
2. My ground-dwelling boa loves to climb - like my former Nelson's Milksnake, and many other snakes.

However, before you & I proceed with this discussion any further, it's important to acknowledge a profound truth about this topic:

* Little is known about Rosy Boa behavior in the wild - especially regarding locale-specific behavior. *
(I have only found one documented field study, with minimal information.)

Rosy Boas are highly adaptable animals, thus I would expect different behavior, and maybe even prey preference differences, from location to location. Much prime habitat lacks climbing material, but other habitat does not. As I did recent research online about scarring & sexing, I noticed many photos showing boas climbing on rocks, or up slopes. It's natural to assume that they also climb on low shrubs & trees, in search of bird nestlings or lizards, especially as juveniles. (Ironwood, Cat claw & Mesquite are all common in their home range.)

(CONTINUED)

Whenever I have gotten a new snake from a pet store or other source, they typically come from a 20-gallon setup with one hide box and water dish. (No hard surfaces to rub against to aid in shedding.) When placed into my naturalistic vivarium setups, with rocks, branches, soak pool and space, they seem DELIGHTED! They explore for hours, usually for about 3-5, the record is over 8 hours.

I change my vivarium setup often, moving some rocks or branches - or doing an entirely new setup that I enjoy even more. When I make any changes, my snakes notice right away. They go to that spot and sniff for as long as 30 minutes. They are keenly aware of additions, removals or changes to their setup, and they like variety. (Just like we do.)

* In general, reptiles & other animals are much more intelligent than most people think. Elephants communicate via low-frequency sounds in a structured language. In ideal conditions, they can communicate for up to 150 miles. Kingsnakes have been seen luring birds out in the open, exposing themselves to temporary attack, to learn in which trees the parent birds nest. They then immediately seek that tree to attack the nest, saving themselves much time away from ital-and-error stalking. Horned lizards have been found sleeping under the sand with their arms around each other. Rattlesnakes have complex social relationships; at favored den & basking sites they have separate areas for each sex or age group. I've seen a juvenile Russian Ratsnake learn an escape route down a large shrub with many branches within seconds. He then duplicated that exact route when placed back in that shrub later. *

Enclosure size & setup? That is a VERY individual decision. I'm not any better than any other Herper because I use a naturalistic setup. Rather, what I try to convey to other Keepers (Breeders have other needs & considerations, I understand) is that I defer back to the Golden Rule: Do unto other as you would have them do unto you.

If a Martian or other race suddenly usurped power and somehow enslaved Humanity as pets, how would I want to be kept & treated? With one hide box and a water dish - our equivalent of a tiny closet with a wash basin? On paper towels? With minimal accessories? At the very least, I'd want to be kept in a small gymnasium, with many accessories and much space to exercise. I'd absolutely need a variety of diet, clean (not tap) water and exercise to be happy. (If I also had the option of interacting with a more intelligent, more powerful Being, expanding my sphere of understanding and increasing my home range - I'd jump at the chance, and would establish a mutually beneficial relationship right away!)

RIGHT NOW, my boa is climbing all over her biome. She has been active for hours. She refused food yesterday, so she's not hungry. She has both a warm & cool area, and a rock pile with a concealed cave cavity. She does NOT stay still. She is NOT waiting for her next meal (like a Veg Head on a couch, watching television). She is actively exploring her home, and enjoying it, because my basic design allows & encourages her to.

In conclusion, I was mostly challenging the myth that having water in the enclosure would cause a knee-jerk regurgitation. So far, my soak pool has had no effect. The benefit is that it provides a place for my snake to purge itself of all mites or ticks, if ever infested. (Mites & ticks breath air, via their exoskeleton "skin". A 30-minute soak in water drowns them and completely disinfects the soaking snake itself.)

I look forward to your future pots & replies, and I appreciate your time & engagement.

Don in Vancouver, WA
Network Engineer, 55 (Explorer, Discoverer, Herpetologist, Naturalist, Writer)

1.0 Lampropeltis getula splendida
1.0 Terrapene carolina carolina
1.0 Terrapene carolina triangus
0.1 Lichurana trivirgata trivirgata

I appreciate the dialogue, Ameron. You were right - I try to spread info that I think is beneficial for the animals. Me coming across as a know-it-all is an unfortunate side-effect. No hard feelings I hope!

I guess the best approach is to look at things from the perspective of the animal. Rosies live in habitats where they conserve water by preventing evaporation and usually avoiding conditions of high evaporation rate. Coupled with the ability to warm up without drying out too quickly. All good stuff for them. As long as we provide them with the ability to do that, then they are good.

So if my cages are different than yours, all fine if the snakes can do what they need to do. Good discussion.

I still disagree with your active snake = more happy. Agree to disagree

Your child is sitting at the TV, bored. He or she has been lethargic all day. You suddenly disturb them and make them go outside for some exercise. They resist at first, as a knee-jerk reaction. A few moments later, however, they are dashing around, laughing & playing.

When you say that it's time to go back inside, they resist. They want to play longer - now that you have aroused them and encouraged them to do so. (Positive behavior must often be encouraged.)

Same thing with my snakes. I see this time & again. When I encourage activity, they respond favorably. When put back into their habitat, they are active for at least 30-60 minutes, as they wind down. It's a dramatic change from their behavior just moments earlier when they had nothing to do and no incentive to explore.

Is the lethargic kid at the TV set as happy as the one who was roused and encouraged to be active? I don't think so. I'd love to see this theory tested in clinical tests.

Well, a rosyboa does not have quite the mental capacity of a child, but I get what you are saying. Look at the rosy body shape - they are not meant for distance travel. They are meant for friction on the ground but smooth sailing through tunnels and crevices. They are built for the ability to grab prey while in a resting position, or even in a tunnel. That is the body shape.

Humans are built for distance coverage. Two legs is for energy-conserving locomotion for covering general distance. Not the fastest in a straight line - 4-legs with a high center of mass is much faster. So, a human and a snake, especially a heavy-bodies snake, are by no means in the same realm of needing the same kind/amount of exercise.

If a keeper really wants to stimulate the mind of a rosy, my advice would be a cage with tunnels, perhaps like PVC with elbows and all. Or hides that are somewhat low in height and dark and connected. But a cage with some aspen, a few hides that have lots of room in them height-wise, some branches, etc - that does little for a rosyboa. They want to "feel" the hide on all sides. They want a small opening to stick their head out but otherwise remain concealed in a lie-and-wait predatory mode, or they want to crawl in a hole and find a rodent nest. They want cover. They want to be inside stuff, not on branches. You can take them out and let them crawl for exercise. In the cage, they want to be mostly concealed. They are really happy that way.

I understand, and acknowledge, what you state. I also know that a child has a different mental capacity than that of an animal - particularly that of a reptile. However, keep in mind that NO serious, long-term studies of reptile intelligence have been done. Proper intelligence testing must also be done with a Reptilian format & expected end result - not the same processes used for mammals. I know of one Gray Parrot with a larger vocabulary than that of many "Human" teenagers.

I disagree, however, with many Keepers about snake attitudes. I feel strongly, based on my experience, that reptiles LOVE naturalistic setups - whether or not plants are fake. They like being concealed, true, but only part of the time. They also like variety (all life forms seem to have this in common, even starfishes) and enjoy new things and exploration.

My adult female, which I suspect was wild-caught & poached, has two hide spots. One is a rock pile - just like she'd have in nature. She spends LITTLE time in either. Day & night, I usually see her on the branches, either basking or climbing around. (In the wild, their home range is at least 3-5 acres, one of the smallest ranges known for a snake. Rat snake home ranges can exceed 17 acres.)

I think that housing setup, accessories & space matter very much - with any captive. I also think that the common practice of a housing setup with only a hide box and water dish, with no branches, is a recipe for an unhealthy & bored reptile. In that scenario, it's only activity, it's only "fun", is to eat a frozen-thawed rodent every week or two. (That same existence for any Human would likely result in insanity, death - or a breakout.)

What I'd like to convey to other Herpers is this: How would I want to be treated as a captive? What considerations & accessories, along with outside exercise, would I want??

Not all snakes are rosies obviously. Some snakes are very mobile in nature, as their body shapes show, and do cover distance in the wild way more than snakes that live in a network of tunnels and crevices. Those mobile species need room. I agree with you there for sure. Keepers need to be knowledgeable of the species and be fair in their offerings of enclosures.

In nature, snakes do a good deal of avoiding nature - the part of nature they do not want. Inclement weather is handled by retreating somewhere. Dry conditions are met by staying under things that reduce evaporation from the snake. You get the picture. They are selective about what part of nature they use.

Regarding your rosy ignoring the rock pile. I have tried that too years ago. It was not used much at all. I had a CHE above the rocks. That particular rosy usually stayed under a piece of newspaper I put in there next to the rocks. Then I moved the rocks out and put in some more newspaper to cover a wider area under the heat and extending out. I rarely saw the snake - she stayed under the paper. Her feeding response became even more pronounced. My thought is that although the rocks look more natural, it was the newspaper/heat/substrate combo that better matched what the snake was looking for. Humans may be drawn to ambiance, but I think snakes are drawn to functional conditions. They are happy to use anything that gives them what they want, whether it be plastic, paper, whatever. They have no concept of "looks". If you can make functional and look good, awesome.

My boa is now using her rock pile more often. Comprised of 7 rocks, it is almost a foot high, and occupies about 25% of her vivarium at the right corner. It has a cave-like cavity where she can hide in low light.

She still very much loves to move around often, and is surprisingly active - for both a boa and a female. (My males usually tended to be much more active than females, across species.)

I'm really glad that I do not use an under-tank heater. They tend to encourage the snake to stay in that spot only, usually concealed. Overhead basking mimics natural sunlight and encourages my snake to be seen much more often.

My design strategy works - and I get my reward. She's out & about right now. Happy Herper! (;