Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I live in a good King snake habitat but with huge temperature swings from below freezing in the winter to over 115 degrees in the summer. Since I live in a poorly insulated Mobile home with no AC and only a small space heater to keep my bedroom and den warm in the winter, I have been thinking of ways to more effectively replicate the natural habitat for my king snakes, without breaking my piggy bank. I don't know if this has been done before, but I came up with this idea and thought I would run it by you more experienced guys: Since I do own a compact tractor with a loader, I could dig a 6 to 8 foot wide trench into the side of a hill on my acreage and lay several large PVC pipes in the trench side by side about a foot apart and sloping down towards the back of the trench, at about a 20 degree angle; then burry them so that the back end is covered by 4 or 5 feet of earth. the open end being just at the surface, would be enclosed in a fine mesh cage, including the bottom, around the entrance of each individual pipe. I could put one snake in each cage so it could enter the pipe and go down to whatever depth that it found comfortable. To be able to retrieve the snakes, I would install another, slightly smaller pipe into each of the buried pipes, with the deep end plugged off, that way I could slide it out and easily dump the snake. I would grade around the entrance, so that water doesn't flood the artificial burrow, and provide a water bowl that could be filled by a timed drip irrigation system, which I already have the plumbing for. Finally, I have a big roll of chain link fencing that I could use to enclose the whole works in, to keep out the Coons, road runners and Coyotes. I am thinking this setup would most nearly replicate the snakes natural habitat on my property, without having to build a well-insulated building or having to rely on electrical gadgets to maintain proper temps. Might even work year round, leaving feeding as the only maintenance. All serious comments appreciated.

While I am entertained by your thoughts, I do not think anything good would come from them.
Having kept and bred Cal kings for over 50 years, I have used a number of methods. When I started I lived in SoCal, and had my kings in cages in a shaded carport. No heat or cooling, just fed them when they wanted and allowed them something to get into when they wanted. They reproduced without problem.
I would think KISS and proper troubleshooting Tech. would apply, if you want it to work, keep it simple stupid(kiss) and simplest things first, PTT.
You do understand, that brumation is a bit goofy, as kings do not do that. Not in a sense of becoming inactive. You do know that right now in SoCal, its the time to find kingsnakes. They, kingsnakes, are up and active all winter, on any halfway warm day. They are most likely less active on hot summer days, down and in.
That said, its as easy as, fill the cages with substrate, and put the cages in a closet, unheated room etc. make sure they have water.
A friend of mine, bred zillions of kings, and he kept them in his basement. it was 55F year around. he kept heat strips in the cages, in the front. When he went in the room in the winter, if the snakes were on heat or crawling, he offered them food, He said, most of them ate once or twice during winter.

Ok, I respect your opinion, but curious as to why you think it might not work?
I agree that keeping it simple is the way to go. I thought it was a pretty simple(easy) way to manage several snakes. I am on 25 acres of isolated empty land here, so have plenty of space for burying a bunch of pipes.
BTW, I only have one Cal King....the rest are; 1 Pyro, 1 Alterna, and 4 Leonis.

A couple points, First, Lack of control. Rain, floods, etc and the snakes not doing what you want them to do. having kept reptiles outdoors for almost 30 years. I understand, their is a different set of rules.
Reinventing the wheel, in your case, replacing a Michelin super tire, with a square wooden tire.
No land is empty.

land always has some manner of life. So you will destroy something, cause you "want to"
Please do not take offense personally, as a newbie, you can take offense. Its always a wonder why newbies, somehow want to reinvent something, before the actually learn the something.
You said, you want to do it more naturally, yet, you have no idea what naturally means. Snakes do not pick areas willy nilly, The winter sites they use, are a tiny area in a huge area, that allows them to survive and has proven that over hundreds of years. The wild individuals that choose the wrong winter sites, die, they are selected against. The ones that choose the right areas, live and repeat that choice, if they don't, they to are selected out of the gene pool. In your cages, you are suppose to provide safe conditions and its EASY to do that.
As someone who has kept kings as mentioned, over 50 years, I have to wonder why anyone would want to make the same mistakes we made 50 years ago. Then you wonder, do they really think they are so unique and so smart, that they think no one else has tried it? All that tried that has come up with this, keep them in the cage, allow some cool temps, say in the 50's and wait until spring. If you have that much extra time, how about building a really naturalistic cage that allows full behavior. From breeding, to nesting, to eggs hatching in the cage, to the neonates growing up. Even that has been done, but could be done better. You could make it so you could view them above and below ground level, etc. Sorry for the crap pic.

Anybody else?

Steve
I live in Sarnia Ontario Canada, my daughter found what looks like a young albino king snake, now we have resident milk, corn, fox & black snakes. Can you tell me plz what is the lowest temp a king snake in winter go before it dies, is it possible where I am a resident population was established ? How closely related are corn-milk snakes to king snakes ? Is it possible I have an albino throw back to king snakes out of milk or corn snakes ? Then how do you sex them plz ?
Duane Skuce
Ninjabunny@sympatico.ca
Thank you greatly.

I am no expert on the subject but I will give it a shot. First, Milk snakes are one of the 7-8 species of king snakes, (Lampropeltis Triangulum)with several sub species included, including the scarlet king snake, which is not generally called a milk snake, although that's what it is.
Corn snakes are another genus and can not produce viable offspring if it were possible to breed with kings. I am surprised that you found a King that far north and more so that it is an albino. It is probably someone's escaped pet. They should be kept above 43 degrees F. during 3 to 4 months of winter, and then gradually warmed up to 80s for the rest of the year. they don't like the in between temps for long periods. This might require an artificial heat source in your area. periods below the low 40s can be tolerated for short periods....over night, etc.

Hi Steve
thanks for your reply, very interesting. Is it possible a King snake that escaped could breed with a Milk snake producing young ? Could the young also genetically throw back to the King side ? In other words could an escaped King snake up here breed with a local Milk snake & have young.
Thanks my friend.
Ninjabunny@sympatico.ca

I would not go that route. 1. it's not at all necessary. 2. there will be variables out of your control that could harm your animals... just because they have a length of pipe to move into doesn't mean they aren't trapped. I think ants could possibly pose a problem.

it's easy to care for kings and it doesn't require anything new to be created... why risk the health of your animals by stepping so far away from what has been proven to work a million times over? If you'd like to experiment, have at it, but change a single variable at a time.

I do admire your desire to create something awesome for your animals though. Maybe put that effort into a killer large display tank.

Thanks,great input; I did not think about the ants, although I had my Getula in a tank with a horned toad for a few months and I put a lot of ants in there for it. They did not seem to bother the snake, but I only tried two species of ants, not the fire ants that are more aggressive. Maybe I will try a gopher snake first to see how it goes with the ants.

Re the large display tank, I could only put one king in a tank....I think if I put in more, they would eat each other. Then there is the problem of keeping the tank cool in the summer. I don't think the snakes could tolerate 110 degrees for very long...I tried that once with a gopher snake and it was dead by the end of the day. I have no AC except in my bedroom and I only run it when I am home, because of the electricity cost. Same thing for winter, where it can get down to freezing in the rest of the house, (a poorly insulated mobile home), with only my bedroom kept above 65 to 70 degrees with a little space heater, and then only when I am in there. Right now I keep all my snakes in the bedroom, but I don't like to. I need something better without spending a lot on a dedicated snake house with AC and Heat. If it weren't for the temperature extremes here, I would not have a problem.

What your saying is not a good excuse, in fact, its reason for you to not keep snakes, period. If you do not choose to keep them properly/safely, then don't keep them.

how about instead of digging a hole in the ground, make a small reptile shed, and control the temps. Many folks keep their reptiles in out buildings.
There are also many ways to heat a room. a small radiator type heater, can be used when temps drop below 50F, which would be rare. Heat tapes, etc etc.
Lastly, I think you make this stuff up, just to troll. I do not heat my house, and it gets a whole lot colder here, yet, the lowest the inside temps have been is 54F which is perfect winter temps for snakes. We do heat our bedroom at night. My animals have a building, which has a cooler, air conditioner, and heating. And some cages have heat lites, heat pads etc.
You claim to be intelligent, yet have not shown any indication of that. So exactly what are the room temps in your house?

FR, I will answer you one more time. Everything I have stated is correct as far as I know. You probably live in a house that is well insulated...I do not. Mobile homes have thin walls (they are trailers). I lost my AC/heat system this summer, when we were getting a string of days over 115 degrees. I recorded a temp of 143 degrees at the thermometer mounted on the side of the building one day. That's when I ordered/installed the window air in my bedroom window. It was rated for a room more than twice the size of my bedroom, but just manages to keep the temp down to 81 degrees running full blast on a hot day. I moved the snakes into that room to keep them alive, so I wouldn't have to keep putting frozen jugs of water in the tanks. Now it is winter, with several sub-freezing nights so far. I can see the frost coming out of my mouth, inside the trailer sometimes, so I use a small electric heater in the bedroom only, to save on electricity.....my electric bill last month was still 80$. You are probably right about one thing; This is not a good situation for keeping snakes. I could spend the 8,000$ that the AC guy quoted me for replacing my system, but I am too cheap. I already mentioned here,(twice), that I do not want to build a snake room, meaning an out building that is well insulated, like brick or cinder block, then add heat and AC; I don't want to spend that kind of money just to keep snakes. If the under ground system that I proposed does not work, I will get out of the hobby; It will be too expensive, considering it is the least of many hobbies that I spend my time and money on. If the system I described does work, keeps the snakes healthy and happy and saves me the time/trouble of maintaining the tanks, I will post it here, with pictures, for everyone's benefit. (except yours, of course, who I am convinced will never accept the idea, no matter how well it works out). Cheers

Its not about excepting your idea, such things have been done before. If that's what you want to do, then do it.
That you need someone to except your silly idea, is what is weird. Its silly because, its not new. And your excuses for doing it are silly. You have a tractor, but no heat, hmmmmmmm You can keep a tractor running, but not buy a heat pad, or a $100 room a/c. Your original idea of you are better at breeding kingsnakes, then nature is. etc etc etc. I wish your animals luck, I hope the best for them. That is, if you even have any.

Here is what I did this year, as it was especially cold in December here in So Cal, and my herps are in my garage = no insulation:

I put the snakes in a big tub (like species with like species), put some deep substrate, put a big strip of 11-inch heat tape under each tub on one end, set it to 58 deg, and let it go at that.

I noticed some of my rosies and kings sitting at the cold end with air temps at 48 deg, sometimes they were on the 58 deg.

This month, I started to increase the heat tape a few deg each day. I am now at 83 deg, and of course the air temps in So Cal at night are not as cold anymore. 6 of 8 rosies just fed eagerly and both kings did as well. All are good.

Anyway, point is, pretty simple and functional.

That aws avtually helpful, thanks. Where in So Cal are you?
That is a little bit simpler as long as you can get away with keeping several kings in the same tub, it reduces costs on heat pads, thermostats, tubs, etc.
I have 6 kings, mostly different species and ages, (1 getula adult, 1 Leonis adult, 3 Leonis of different size babies, 1 Pyro baby and 1 Alterna baby); most are choice selected specimens so I am reluctant to do that. It would be pricy to buy heat pads and thermostats for all of them. and I am not keeping up with water every couple days, (dishes go dry).
we had a week of slightly warmer temps, where I was able to keep temps in the house up to high 60s at night and starting to get low 70s in the day. Tonight I tried a feeding.....got the Pyro, and one Leonis baby to take FT pinks, but Leonis spit his out after a few minutes but then ate it again after about half hour. The rest are not interested. So I wasted 3 hours of time I don't have on that effort. Also haven't had time to build the underground habitat either. Need to do it though, before it gets too hot this summer and I have to go back to the frozen water jug cooling system.

San Pedro/Palos Verdes area.

I agree, keeping herps cool in Summer IMO is more of a challenge than heating them.

I use the garage floor alot at that time, the concrete floor stays relatively cool even during very hot days. In fact, the number of snakes I have is equal to how many cages I can have side-by-side directly lying on the garage floor.

That is a good way to handle it for sure, but for me, my garage gets much hotter inside than the outside temps, being a steel industrial type building(like a Quonset hut); I can't even go in there for more than a few minutes in summer. The floor is concrete and probably is cooler, but I have not measured the temp; I will do that this coming summer after we get the first long heat waves. The other issue for me, being 6 feet 4 inches tall,70 years old and having a bad back and knees, is with the cages on the floor, I would have great difficulty servicing them. On the other hand, cages around the opening of buried pipes would save on daily work; the substrate would be the ground, which is decomposed granite, where cleaning would be minimal due to the infinite depth of substrate and there would be no mess to clean up, or smell, like happens in my house or garage. Their could be a screen bottom on the cages, buried a foot or so below the substrate surface to prevent escape, and the drip-irrigation system running through all the cages should be close to a maintenance free system for keeping water in the dishes; any overflow would just sink into the DG substrate. weekly feeding would be the only work required. The only down side I can think of is the distance from where I spend most of my time,(the house), would be as much as a couple hundred feet away, so I would not see and enjoy the snakes as often as I do now. There is the possible issue of theft or vandalism, but with a chain link fence and locked gate around and over it, someone would really have to work at it, even if they knew of the location and existence of the operation. Ants seem to be the only likely problem that I can foresee so far. I keep ants out of my insect rearing cages by using polished stainless steel rods as legs for the cages, which I grease up the same way I do to keep ants out of my insect traps when I collect in the tropics. Only flying insects have access.

In some parts of rural Mexico, it is amazing how cool they keep the main room simply by digging the floor down about 18 inches.

I think a below-ground system would be awesome.

When I was a kid and living at my parents house - they have a house on a foundation - I could keep snakes under their house below ground level, and in summer the air temps under there never got above 80. The effectiveness of the ground as an insulator cannot be argued.

And yes, cages on the garage floor are a bit of a pain to service. I actually laid down a run of utility carpet so I can lay on that while my arms are reaching inside cages. Awe, the stuff we do for this hobby.