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longissima classification

nechushtan Jan 12, 2004 03:44 AM

I actually have several questions about this:
1) What is the current classification of the Aesculapian rat snake?
2) Has there been an attempt to separate out different regional characteristics in this species and classify accordingly (like has been done with the Pituophis in the US) and if so can someone help enlighten me as to the differences found?
3) Can someone tell me the range of the Longissima as currently classified?
4) Is there a close relative of the Longissima in the Near East (eg. Sainai penensula) that dosn't actually classify as either the Persica or the Longissima?
Sorry if this all sounds ignorant... I am new to snakes and very new to taxonomy but I'm also very interested.

Thanks,
Ron
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaninless in some sense." R.A. Wilson and Robert Shea "The Eye in the Pyramid"

Replies (10)

meretseger Jan 13, 2004 12:29 AM

In the new ratsnake classification, the genus name of the Aesculipean is Zamenis. Which is one of the less-silly sounding ones if you can believe it. They're unfortunately tough to get in the States, I've been looking for 4 years and just barely have some leads. I just consider myself lucky I found javelin sand boas...
Other than that I don't have any other info, although if no one posts I can dig out my ratsnake book for you.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

nechushtan Jan 13, 2004 03:59 AM

You've replied to some of my earlier posts regarding this species and I've hoped to open a more informal dialogue and possibly share leads. Write me at ahih_ani@hotmail.com so we can chat further.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaninless in some sense." R.A. Wilson and Robert Shea "The Eye in the Pyramid"

CKing Jan 15, 2004 10:07 AM

"In the new ratsnake classification, the genus name of the Aesculipean is Zamenis. Which is one of the less-silly sounding ones if you can believe it."

This new classification is a proposal only. No one is required to follow this proposal. The names are not a problem, silly sounding or not, because the real bone of contention is whether we need all these names for this group of snakes. In a nut shell I would say no, we do not need these names. Utiger et al., the authors who splinter Elaphe, are doing so for one reason: their adherence to Hennigian taxonomy. Hennigian taxonomy is not universally accepted by zoologists, and the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature does not endorse Hennigian taxonomy (or any other school of taxonomy) as the official guideline for classifying animals. Therefore even the limited power of the ICZN cannot be used to require that anyone must follow the Hennigians' proposals in general and Utiger et al.'s proposal in particular. Utiger et al. are digging up a lot of old, forgotten names because they need to recognize a large number of contrived, morphologically indistinguishable taxa. They need to do this because they are faithfully following Hennig's dictate: a taxon must consist of one ancestor and all its descendants. The genus Zamenis, like the other genera Utiger et al. erected/resurrected, cannot be defined consistently. Even professional herpetologists (such as WW) who specialize in snakes cannot distinguish, for example, Zamenis and Elaphe morphologically. Anyone who thinks that Wells and Wellington's taxa are not diagnosable ought to take a close look at Utiger et al.'s names. Utiger et al.'s taxa are equally undefinable yet these names are readily embraced by many simply because the names are found in a newly published paper and by others because they automatically support the taxonomic proposals of other Hennigians (or cladists).

WW Jan 13, 2004 03:19 AM

>>I actually have several questions about this:
>>1) What is the current classification of the Aesculapian rat snake?

Zamenis longissimus, as stated by meretseger.

>>2) Has there been an attempt to separate out different regional characteristics in this species and classify accordingly (like has been done with the Pituophis in the US) and if so can someone help enlighten me as to the differences found?

There has been no thorough DNA-based phylogeographic study. The souther Italian populations (previously known as Elaphe longissima romana) were shown to be a different species, Elaphe lineata (now Zamenis lineatus) by Lenk & Wuster (1999) (PDF file of paper available from link below).

>>3) Can someone tell me the range of the Longissima as currently classified?

Widespread central and southern Europe, north to Germany, central-northern France, extreme souther Poland, not most of Spain, east to southwestern Russia, Ukraine and Caucasus.

>>4) Is there a close relative of the Longissima in the Near East (eg. Sainai penensula) that dosn't actually classify as either the Persica or the Longissima?

Not in the Sinai area. Elaphe does not get into the Middle Eastern and N. African deserts.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
WW publications

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WW Home

nechushtan Jan 13, 2004 03:56 AM

Thanks for the very helpful info from both you and meretseger and now I have some further questions...
1) Is the Greek Longissimus still the Longissima or has it been reclassified also (the areas of Southern Italy and Greece are not only close but appear to have similar geographic characteristics that are not present further North)?
2) Does there appear to be a genetic connection between the Persica and the Longissimus (eg. common ancestor)and if not what was the reason for early confusion between the two species?

I'm preparing a talk on the Sacred Serpent in Early Western Mythos and am really hoping to provide scientific connections to current species for the Aesculapian and Moses Stories (eg. Staff of Aesculapias and Firey serpents/Brazen Serpent) so any relevant info on what species were most likely revered enough by the people of the time to fold them into their legends would be much appreciated.
-----
Amor et Lux,
Ron

"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaninless in some sense." R.A. Wilson and Robert Shea "The Eye in the Pyramid"

WW Jan 13, 2004 07:18 AM

>>Thanks for the very helpful info from both you and meretseger and now I have some further questions...
>>1) Is the Greek Longissimus still the Longissima or has it been reclassified also (the areas of Southern Italy and Greece are not only close but appear to have similar geographic characteristics that are not present further North)?

The Greek form is still Zamenis longissimus, and distinct from the southern Italian Zamenis lineatus.

Note, by the way, that for scientific names, one uses both the genus and species names together. The species name (longissimus) is not normally used on its own without the genus name (Zamenis)

>>2) Does there appear to be a genetic connection between the Persica and the Longissimus (eg. common ancestor)and if not what was the reason for early confusion between the two species?

According to recent DNA-based studies, Zamenis persicus appears to be quite distinct from Z. longissimus, and may be closer to Z. hohenackeri. I can't really tell you why they were formerly grouped as a single species with Z. longissimus.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Terry Cox Jan 22, 2004 02:09 PM

>>>>2) Does there appear to be a genetic connection between the Persica and the Longissimus (eg. common ancestor)and if not what was the reason for early confusion between the two species?
>>
>>According to recent DNA-based studies, Zamenis persicus appears to be quite distinct from Z. longissimus, and may be closer to Z. hohenackeri. I can't really tell you why they were formerly grouped as a single species with Z. longissimus.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Wolfgang

It appears there is some connection bt. Z. (Elaphe) longissimus and Z. (Elaphe) persicus, since they were placed in the same group/or genus. According to Utiger et al. longissimus is more closely related to lineata and situla than any other member of the group. Of course, it is a proposal, and further research may indicate there is a close connection bt. longissimus and persicus. I believe the confusion of earlier taxonomists had to do with the fact that longissimus occured near the mtns where persicus lived and the fact that they superficially resemble each other. Longissimus looks more like persicus than situla and from my informal observations, I would think that longissimus and persicus are more closely related. I would enjoy seeing more testing on this.

TC/Ratsnake Haven

Snakefinger Oct 29, 2005 07:14 PM

G'day,

May I draw your attention to the following article.

Best wishes

Snakefinger
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1,1 Elaphe dione
1,1 Coelognathus helenus
1,1 Zamenis persicus
- - -
http://home.versanet.de/~j-voelkel/

johnscanlon Mar 03, 2004 08:43 PM

nechushtan wrote:

“I'm preparing a talk on the Sacred Serpent in Early Western Mythos and am really hoping to provide scientific connections to current species for the Aesculapian and Moses Stories (eg. Staff of Aesculapias and Firey serpents/Brazen Serpent) so any relevant info on what species were most likely revered enough by the people of the time to fold them into their legends would be much appreciated.”

My idea starts from the fact that Sacred Serpents (including ‘dragons’) in Europe, the Americas and Australia are frequently portrayed with a beard, wings, or prominent ears, which I think all represent that peculiar feature of COBRAS that we call a ‘hood’.

Where people coexist with cobras (throughout Africa and southern Asia) they are not only a threat to personal safety but ecologically important in other ways such as rodent control (without which agriculture might never have started), and their behaviour (especially the upright threat display and visual orientation mirroring distinctive human features) is magical enough. Of course they’re involved in mythology and ritual in India, ancient Egypt, etc. (major players in creation myths, companions of deities and kings). Moses’ staff trick is supposedly still done by ‘hypnotising’ an Egyptian Cobra into rigidity.

What Europe, America and Australia have in common is NO cobras; the real human relationship with these snakes was mythologised when people and traditions moved into areas that had none. Artistic portrayals of sacred serpents in these areas retain the upright stance, prominent eyes, ‘beard’ or ‘wings’, and large size characteristic of cobras, and the association with creation myths, law and fertility. But in morphological details, they are either highly stylized or based on animals native to the artist’s own country, such as rattlesnakes in the Americas; vipers or Ophisaurus in Europe; pythons, file snakes or pipefish in Australia.

I wrote something about this idea in the Australian Museum’s magazine Summer 2001-02 issue (Scanlon and Lee, 2001. The Serpent Dreamtime. Nature Australia 27(3): 36-45); the rest of the article concerned snakes of the extinct family Madtsoiidae, several of which have scientific names based on Aboriginal Rainbow Serpent names (starting with Wonambi, named by Meredith Smith, 1976). The link between Rainbow Serpents and pipefish was proposed by Paul Tacon et al. 1996 (Archaeology in Oceania 31(3): 103-124), but that only explains a pictorial tradition and not the underlying mythology. I’d be interested to hear if anyone else has discussed the idea of cobras as the source of ‘extralimital’ traditions, and would welcome discussion of other aspects of the idea. – Getting away from taxonomy a bit, but I can’t think of a better forum.
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John D. Scanlon
Riversleigh Fossil Centre
Outback at Isa
Mount Isa, Queensland, Australia

jfirneno Jan 14, 2004 09:12 AM

according to K.D. Schulz's monograph both the Trans-caucasian ratsnake and E. quatorlineata sauromates (now considered a full species by some)are both located in Israel. I believe both are said to be located in the highlands between Israel, Lebannon and possibly Syria. Of course by the new studies, of these two, only the Trans-Caucasian is closely related to the longissimus. But the sauromates is probably more likely to be mistaken for longissimus than the other.

John

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