Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Often this is a reason. I think it is a silly excuse. Why do these anaimals need to be handled for education. A venomous animal should be respected not handed around in a lecture. That's the whole idea, that you can't free handle them and that they are dangerous and should be respected.
Wingert

Since you specifically aimed this at me for personal pleasure... Here are a couple reasons:

1. I teach younger people about snakes, I believe that even the presence of a venomous snakes would make their parents uncomfortable. If I did have one, I do not intend to free handle it, I don't see the point of spending $300 getting a snake so I can just free handle it, thats what Boas and Pythons are for.

2. In general, public places where I teach people would not even let me take one in their building. Can you imagine what would happen if a venomous snake of mine got lost in a public building? I'd rather not have a loose venomous snake in a public place, because the vast majority of the population would mistreat it or get bitten.

3. I don't support hack job venomoids... and I never will. There is no excuse for taking an animal into your garage, not using anethesia, and using dirty tools to rip its mouth apart. However, I do not think that it is completely "wrong" to get one animal, that has had PROPER tools and anethesia just to have a living example of a native snake. Most of the talks I do are on native snakes, getting a venomoid Gaboon Viper doesn't make any sense just to show someone to me.

The real reason would be a liability issue of the people I was showing the snake to... its not a hobby of mine to get snakes that are venomous to say "Ohhh look, here's a snake that was venomous". That makes no sense to me... if you get a venomous snake to have a venomous snake for personal use, let it be venomous, but if your going to show people and educate them to keep them from killing off an entire species, its better to have one that can't kill someone to show them, and have the people I teach sue me out of house and home if they get bitten.

If you take the time to read you may understand that it's not something that I particularly support, just something that I'd like to have to teach people about native venomous snakes. Other than mine, I don't see any other reason for having a exotic venomoid.
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Currently have:
1.0 Amelanistic Elaphe guttata
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe guttata
1.0 Elaphe vulpina gloydi
1.0 Morelia Spilota Cheyni
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe obsoleta linheimeri
0.1 Oakatee Elaphe guttata

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix mokasen
Epicrates cenchria cenchria

Whats wrong with using an intact specimen and keeping it in a completely escape proof display enclosure? When using ANY reptile in an educational program one must be 100% sure that the animal cannot escape. When using venomous or venomoids in an educational program the animal has no buisiness EVER being free from it's escape proof enclosure. What would be the point?

With this in mind I cannot concieve of a situation where venomoids would be of any educational value. Unless the presenter wanted to add a bit of unnecessary sensationalism. Handling a venomoid or keeping it in anything less than a completely secure display enclosure while giving a presentation to children would seem like incredibly poor judgement to say the least.

If the animal is in a completely secure enclosure for the presentation....why would it need to be a venomoid?

Insurance and permits to display venomous snakes for educational purposes can be a little expensive, but not outrageous. It is something that qualified individuals should have no problem attaining.

Taw, you are quite correct other than that most places won't even let you in with a venomous snake, regardless of if you have a permit.

Wingert's post was almost directly aimed at me, so I felt compelled to respond.

Something that I've noticed about most anti-venomoid is that they do not take the time to consider the situation. If you state some facts rather than just blatent opinions, you can change people's minds.

The point of these forums is to answer questions related to snakes, rather than just saying "opinions" with lacking information.

One of the reasons that I want a Copperhead is to get 2 adults, and get the same size food and compare their digestion rates. If people would see that there is or is not a difference, more conclusive thoughts could be formed about the whole issue rather than just opinions.
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Currently have:
1.0 Amelanistic Elaphe guttata
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe guttata
1.0 Elaphe vulpina gloydi
1.0 Morelia Spilota Cheyni
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe obsoleta linheimeri
0.1 Oakatee Elaphe guttata

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix mokasen
Epicrates cenchria cenchria

you are quite correct other than that most places won't even let you in with a venomous snake, regardless of if you have a permit.

As far as the law is concerned venomous and venomoids are treated exactly the same. Prohibitions, permits, shipping, etc...all handled the same. What documented proof can you provide for these institutions to assure them that the animal has been rendered "harmless". What proof can you have that the animal is indeed a venomoid, period? Wouldn't detailed photos or powerpoint slides work just as well to educate children about venomous snake identification? This would eliminate the possibility of ANYONE being hurt...human or snake.

One of the reasons that I want a Copperhead is to get 2 adults, and get the same size food and compare their digestion rates.

Your data would be limited to n = 1. To perform any sort of meaningful, "conclusive" research one needs large numbers of test subjects. The larger the better.

This was really not directed at anyone. I can rember being at a show where a lecture was done and the guy was free handleing a gaboon. That is what I was thinking of when I posted. If some one like my self has interest you do research not hope some guy shows up at the mall with a puff adder he likes to hold. What good does it do to show the general public a exotic snake that used to be venomous? I am not that concerned with venomoids. For all I really care if someone wants to cut a snakes head off and sew on a lizzards head so be it. It just gets me when its done for the publics education. The public will be fine without getting up close and personal with venomous snakes.

In this day and age of sue happy folks and liable suits, many organizations bringing in reptile education programs will not allow venomous snakes (unless they have been altered....venomoids). There are many issues in which insurance companies will not take on this type of risk. But, I don't think it is a valid reason to force a snake to become crippled. Our wildlife center had many venomous herps (and only one venomoid that came to us via a confiscation...this animal has always had respiratory/mouth/bacterial problems probably due to a botched surgery). I can think of only a couple of occasions in which we were NOT allowed to visit a school or some other organization with our real venomous herps. We follow very strict safety procedures and NEVER free handle a venomous snake in front of the public. Certain venomous snakes are tubed so that the public, in a controlled setting, can have the opportunity to touch a real venomous snake in a safe setting.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

From everything I've seen... the people in their garages wit scissors really do hurt the animal, and its a shame that it is that way. But on the other side, there are a few qualified surgens that do the surgery on a regular basis, and from what I've read these snakes live just as long and don't have any more health problems than a normal with most species of venomoids.

Of course, text on the internet can be plagued with lies, so they could just be telling me what they want to.

I think that I can relate to Carmichael the most... I don't have a nature center, but I do teach people a fair amount. There are very few insurance companies that will cover venomous snakes... there isn't any profit in it for them, so they don't see the need.

Truth be told, I see now that it is possible to run shows with venomous snakes... we'll just see if I can own one first =/
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Currently have:
1.0 Amelanistic Elaphe guttata
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe guttata
1.0 Elaphe vulpina gloydi
1.0 Morelia Spilota Cheyni
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe obsoleta linheimeri
0.1 Oakatee Elaphe guttata

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix mokasen
Epicrates cenchria cenchria

But on the other side, there are a few qualified surgens that do the surgery on a regular basis

I hear so much about these qualified veterinarians that are performing these operations on a "regular basis". I have yet to see any evidence that this is the case. Proponents of the venomoid trade would have us believe that the majority of venomoids on the market are a product legal surgeries performed by qualified and licensed veterinarians. This is simply not the case. One can trace almost every venomoid that is sold through internet classifieds to a handful (2-3) of UNLICENSED laymen with no veterinary training and no way to LEGALLY obtain proper drugs to perform these surgeries. It isn't difficult to find these things out if one was so inclined.