Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i know this is heated topic but is the morality really that high w/ this procedure, also ive heard of it done 2 ways removing all glandes etc. and then they remove ONLY the tube leading to the fangs....id really like to hear everyones opinion on this good or bad! does it affect digestion? HOT snakes are constantly produc\ing venom right? so where does the old venom in the sacs/glandes go?? and why the do they cost 3 times as much as there natural counterparts.....lol lets hear it!

Having worked with both hots and "fixed" snakes I can offer some valuable insight into your question. First off...the removal and litigation of the venom ducts alone is known as a ductonemy, while a full venom gland and duct removal is called an aneductonemy.

I currently have a northern pacific rattlesnake female, who is about 3 years old now...she has been venomoid since the age on 2 months, and she is amazing! She has tagged me, and no ill results! She has only had her ducts removed. In general with vipers you leave the glands if possible, as they look like they get hit by a car when removed! Implants are often hack job work, and are frequently merely marbles stuffed into the area where the gland once was and the snake stitched shut! Venomoid hack jobs digust me, and I do not support amature lame @$$ attempts of making venomoids! I use only qualified surgons, and they use the highest grade possible everything for the procedure. Much care is taken to do the procedure, and it is time consuming.

Having seen professionally done venomoids I can say they fare just as well as their hot counterparts. Cobras seem to do amazingly well after being fixed...one of my sugrons has a monocled cobra that has been a venomoid for 14 years already...she has outlived all of the hot counterparts from the same clutch!

Venomoids must feed on frozen and thawed or fresh killed prey, as they no longer can kill the prey with venom (as it is not used!).

You must use a qualified and experienced surgon, as both your life and the life of the animal are at stake! You don't want to get tagged by your harmless snake and get envenomated, and you don't want to be cheap and harm an animal! The procedure, when properly done, is nearly flawless with very few complications. I have had several animals done, and never yet one fatality due to the surgury!

I have kept and sold both hots and venomoids. Morally I feel they are the right way to go in some situations. For presentations, etc they are the only way to go! Ethics...hmm...some people keep western diamondbacks in a 20L with a screen lid and they have 4-10 year old kids...now that is irresponsible. Venomoids are not for everyone, but they are the way to go in many situations!

Please feel free to email me for venomoid bite pics!

-Steve Clark
TurtsAndTorts@tmail.com -- email me with any questions!

Also, when just the duct is removed the snake will no longer produce venom, but the venom will still be in the gland! The gland only produces the venom when needed! Digestion has not seemed to be an issue for me, so much as your husbandry is correct! Keep basking spots and temps accurate to their wild habitat, and you should be fine!

-Steve

You must use a qualified and experienced surgon

Just out of curiosity....what are you considering a "qualified surgeon"? This term can ONLY be applied to a LICENSED DVM. This term does NOT include those individuals who are NOT CURRENTLY a licensed vet. This term does NOT apply to those individuals who have "gotten real good" by hacking away at snakes for years in their garage or basement. The title DVM is the key here.

For presentations, etc they are the only way to go!

Please explain. Does this mean that venomoids can now be handled in close proximity to onlookers without fear of injury? Does this mean that venomoids can be free handled in front of an audience? Does this mean that venomoids can be handled by members of the audience without being securely tubed and restrained? If so...what kind of educational message is that?

Venomous snakes can be safely displayed and used in presentations by keeping them in escape proof display enclosures. Insurance and red tape are no problem for QUALIFIED individuals.

Ethics...hmm...some people keep western diamondbacks in a 20L with a screen lid and they have 4-10 year old kids...now that is irresponsible.

Have you ever heard the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right". One group of people engaging in absurd behavior does not justify the actions of another group that are engaging in equally absurd behavior.

with creating venomoids (whether by a qualified surgeon or not), simply because I don't believe in altering an animal simply so you can keep it. Educational shows can utilize hot snakes very simply by keeping them in display cages that are secure and locked. That way the audience can see the snake in all it's unaltered glory, and they can stay safely on the other side of a secure locked cage. Pretty simple. One survey showed that roughly 98% of venomoids were being sold on the private sector. That means that the vast majority of venomoids are going to people who just want a rattlesnake, but are unwilling to take the initiative and learn how to actually keep a venomous snake. Couple that with the fact that most vets will not do the surgery, and legally, only vets can. So most venomoids are garage hacks. I've really voiced my opinion on this subject so many times I'm actually sick of it, so I'll stop here, but IMO, venomoid surgery is unethical, and purchasing a venomoid should be avoided.

AP

Well as a seller (which I am), I can personally tell you the liability of selling hots, both speaking in terms of guarding your pocket and your concious venomoids let me sleep at night! My surgon is a qualified, licensed profesional vet...not a guy with a razor blade some bandaids and a garage space open! When I give my presentations there are often kids...I am giving a show shortly for the local public library, and they will NOT allow any venomous in the building. I don't tell the people they are venomoids during the presentation, and they are handled with respect just as I do with my own hots...the thing is if a kid breaks a glass, or a snake gets out by an error in any manner he won't inflict a deadly bite! Lets just say for me a few hundred extra dollars to cover the procedure make up for it in the ammount of money my butt would be sewed in the event somebody got hit!

Take care guys! I have this far really enjoyed our oppinions being contrasted! This is the way it should be, simple comparing of info and learning the facts...not death threats like some people do when overly oppinionated ::cough:: budman ::cough::

Slither on!

-Steve Clark

Most of the people who are OK with supporting these tragic procedures will never see anything wrong with it. They will continue to come up with all manner of elaborate justifications to ease their conscience and try to sway others opinions. There are two sides here and it is clear to most that the serious, passionate, caring and professional venomous herpetoculturists, herpetologists and DVM's are on the antivenomoid side of the line. The vast majority of individuals that support these procedures are either:

1) A lower level dealer/broker/middle man. At the very least they recieve financial gain from the venomoid trade in some way.

2) A generally inexperienced person when it comes to reptiles or someone who doesn't want to take the necesssary steps to learn how to safely handle and care for a venomous animal. Or heck, someone who is just plain afraid of these animals. Point is most of the customers shouldn't have one of these animals to begin with.

Heck....Some of the "hacks in training" even have taxidermy businesses so that they can at least recoupe some of their money by stuffing and selling the unfortunate animals that don't make it through these amateur "surgeries".

I do my homework........

Please directly email me with any information that you have regarding venomoid "surgons" and their taxidermy ties. I've never heard of any of the people doing this, not even hack job surgons, but it is interesting. I would rather not have you post names as I don't want to upset anyone, but a direct email would be great! Personally, I have a few CB animals (all turtles and tortoises) which I have had freeze dried after they died. I understand they can make great teaching aids in presentations, and I would rather spend a few bux to preserve it rather than toss out something that died of natural causes in the pet trade. With shipping, and everything occasionally you do loose an animal, and even more often animals die as a result of captive breeding efforts...not every baby will live! I guess I could see some people with adult WC animals that die from parasites being sold to taxidermists? I don't really see anything wrong in that as they can get some money, and the taxidermist then gets an animal not killed for its skin...but if it is a mortality from a hack job, that is just wrong! In any event, please drop me a line.

thanks,
Steve Clark
TurtsAndTorts@tmail.com