Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My main question is... i have seen in the other forums people talking about the difference between morphs and hybrids... Now, i am by no means an expert, but when you cross say... a ball and a blood... or a retic and a Burm, people say it is unethical because they are two different kinds of snakes.. when in all actuality, and you break it all down, they are in the same kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, and genus. the only place they differ is in the species.
Now turn the tables and put boas on the table... people seem to have no problems crossing a columbian and a hog, or a hog and a peruvian... or basically any other arrangement you can think of. if you break it all down again, they are the same in kingdom, phylum, class, order, family and genus.. and like the pythons, they are different species.... It seems to me that people look at it as a form of short-cut to the different color morphs instead of selective breeding with two snakes of the same SPECIES to naturally pull out thier own genetic potential. The most common arguement i hear when dealing with this subject is that "well, a ball and a blood would never naturally breed because they are from two totally different places and continents". well... last i checked, i dont think there are any naturally occurring breedings between a columbian and say... an argentinian in nature. If i am wrong, please correct me.
Hybridization is hybridization no matter how you look at it... same continent or different continents.... you are either for it and do it or against it and dont do it... But sorry to say, if you do it by making excuses for yourself like "they are from the same continent" while at the same time saying other hybrids are wrong, sorry, but isnt that a little hypocritical? Just wondering your thoughts on this......

I THOUGHT A COLOMBIAN AND A HOG WERE THE SAME SPECIES, JUST FROM DIFFERENT LOCALITIES. THEY'RE BOTH BCI'S. I COULD BE WRONG. I'M THE ONE THAT POTED "I STINK AT THIS". BUT I THOUGHT A DIFFERENT LOCALITY DIDN'T NECESSARILY MEAN DIFFERENT SPECIES. I'D BE CURIOUS TO SEE SOME OF THE RESPONCES YOU GET MYSELF THOUGH.

Technically, a Hogg hasnt been proven to be a BCI. alot of people say it is, and alot of people say it isnt. Until dna testing is done to prove it out, biologists concider it a subspecies. so in a way it may very well be a form of BCI, but more than likely a subspecies. I was really jsut commenting on the fact that people are all for hybridization if it is to make a more attractive form of somehting to make a load of money, yet not tell someone it IS a hybrid...... thats what i was talking about... people get all upset about ball / blood crosses, but at the same time, they are in the same family and everyhting right down to the species.

Allow me to set some things strait, as I breed both pure boa locals/subspecies and hybrids.

First of all, ALL Boa Constrictors are the same species, they are differant Subspecies. get it strait, the species name is constrictor, while the subspecies names are occidentalis, amarili, melanogaster, sabogae, constrictor, orophias, longicauda, nebulosa, ortoni, sigma, imperator, and I think I left some out.

Also, if you look at the scientific classification of boa constrictors, in respect to both imperator and constrictos the Colombian local is never mentioned. Also both are defined by scale count and the colombian scale count falls under constrictor not imperator.
Hog Island boas were never classified scientifically and have since become extinct in the wild.

Also, I do agree that some try to pass off hybrids as something else morph wise, and this makes it difficult for people like me when I am looking for stock for my projects, wether it is for a pure project or hybrids, I want to know exactly what they are.

All hybrids I produce are microchipped and marked as such.

I'm not against any kind of hybrid as long as there is no chance of introducing it into the wild. Even if it is a short cut to a buck. Just don't try to lie about it and pass it off as something it technically isn't.

Technically, no BC* cross is a hybrid by definition. However, the classification of BC could change tomorrow

i believe my cousin redaregentine just said that
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

Out here in the Land of Tall Corn, the definition of hybrid even includes the offspring of two inbred lines. Subspecies crosses certainly are included in that definition of hybrid. FWIW, I don't see any need for hybrids, whether they are from crossing two genera, two species, or two subspecies. There may be an advantage from crossing inbred lines.

Paul Hollander

if u knew anything at all about breeding reptiles you would know inbreeding is not hybridizng but an essential part in any "morph" project. perhaps you have heard of double het. or F1,F2,F3`s etc.
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

In breeding is not essential to the morph project, it is a faster way for the herp breeder to make cash...

Also, it's his opinion of hybridizing, weather it is in allignment with science, herp breeders, or anyone else doesn't matter. He's entitled to it.

i do hope u realize that unless u have lots of money to buy un-related double het animals which dont really exist and F2s are prettier than F1`s and so on
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

Do I need to make things any clearer.
Morphs, especially with Boa Constrictors where this began, can only be produced through inbreeding of some degree and this is by no means hybridizing.

For instance lets look at the Sharp albino project, anyone who has produced them or any morph includeing them has inbred somewhere. There was only one where they all originated from.

The only time morphs can be produced with no degree of inbreeding if through co-dominant and naturally dominant traits. But if anyone wanted to produce supers from co-dom they would have to inbreed as well, unless the same trait occured simultaniously and effected not only the phenotype the same way but the genotype mutation was the same to make them compatible, more could not be produced with out inbreeding.

By your idiot remark, you are saying that if I import 2.2 wild Surinam Boas (BCC) and breed one pair together and the other pair together to produce offspring, and then from each breeding breed siblings together to produce inbred F2 and then take One male from one line of F2 and a female from the other line of F2 and breed them together that because two inbred animals are crossed they are now hybrids.

By the definition of hybridizeation and of taxonomy they are not HYBRIDS, inbred yes but that is all they are still Surinam Boas (BCC).

If anyone believes utherwise please post your remarks.

Normally I'd ignore you, like your 13 year old cousin from the previous posts, but to call Paul and I idiots and fools for having more of a scientific view of inbreeding and genetics than your redneck "you can make money faster if ya inbreed sooner" approach.

For someone who is trying to make themselves sound and appear intelligent, it would be wise to note that labeling people who probably have ten times the education and field background that you have is not the best way to do so.

Thank you for your infinite wisdom and insight into the mystery of genetics.

First red-neck was an interesting name, I live in Upper St. Clair, PA as far from red-neck as you get.
And my cousin may be foolish at times but he knows what he is talking about.

Read again the entire thread then provide your opinion. And in regards to knowledge I do not know much about yourself, although I would highly recomend to watch what you say.
I am 16 and I feel I have a pretty decent handle on things for a high school junior.

Also, I would do some research if I were you and discover what genetics is and how generations and "Designer Morphs" work. I do not know about you, however I am not here for money I am only explaining facts.

I breed morphs only because they are popular and will finance projects with rare and endangered animals. Which do not have a value of money only in science, and through captive propogation to improve our knowledge.
Puerto Rican Boas, and Boa Constrictor sabogae to name a few. Maybe you have heard of these, which are being bred by research institutions only.

Now to genetics, my biology teacher and the others in our 7 time Blue Ribbon School of Excelence, believe me to have one of the strongest hold on genetics, of any person there (includeing our doctorate teachers).

I may miss some things now and then, and I admit I have a lot to learn, but doesn't everyone.

As a final note, most people hybridize animals for enjoyment, money, or morphs. However, I do my work for one reason, as a study of the effects on the natural behavior of the animals involved and to understand taxonomy, as well as extreme natural selection to breed for the strongest genetics possible.

Thank you.

it is very sad that my cousin and i know more than you about genetics and breeding altogether and and that you dont know the difference from a sub species and a species, for example boa would be the genus constrictor would be the species and constrictor/imperator would be the sub species, and believe it or not there is a differnce in cross and hybrid a cross is between to subspecies and a hybrid is from to species, i value pure blood as much as you or the next guy, as long as the animal is properly labled as a CROSS i have no problems when people knowingly try and sell crosses as pure then it pisses me off.

oh yeah the fact that we arent out of highschool and you guys proclaim to be better than us is sad and if you dont know what you are responding to you should do your research
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

and yes i am a red neck and proud of so you calling me a red neck is like me telling you, you dont know what your talkin about
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom