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AlteredMind99 Oct 18, 2004 02:46 PM

This might be a really stupid question, but im going to ask it anyway. In a book I have (the completely illustrated Atlas of reptiles and amphibians for the terrarium) the group that includes Bearded Dragons, painted dragons and netted dragon is listed as Amphibolurus, with the bearded dragon being A. Barbatus. I had always thought the Bearded dragons were Pogona.

Anyone have any insight to this?
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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

Replies (14)

Wulf Oct 18, 2004 04:22 PM

Hi,

well, this question is neither stupid nor hard to answer
The book you have (authors are Obst et al.) was published back in 1988. So quite some time ago, right?! Meanwhile scientific work goes on and things change.
As far as I know (and sorry, I'm not the lizard specialist) the genus Amphibolurus was introduced by Wiegmann in 1834 and later put to synonymy by a subsequent worker. I think Cogger 1983 resurrected this genus from synonymy and after that the genus Pogona was introduced by Storr in 1992. As you can see, the genus was introduced after the book by Obst et al. was written.

Hope I'm not to wrong and it helps you a little bit...

Cheers,
Wulf
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http://www.leiopython.de - the white-lipped python site -
http://www.herpers-digest.com - herp related eBooks search -

Scott Eipper Oct 19, 2004 03:34 AM

Bearded Dragons where previously in the genus Amphibolurus along with most of the other Australian Dragons at that time. A few wxceptions come to mind were Physignathus (Water Dragons) and Frillys Chlamydosaurus. As Wulf said in the post below the genus Pogona was erected for the Bearded Dragons.

The Painted Dragon and Central Netted Dragon along with about 15 other species are in the genus Ctenophorus.

There are presently 6 species and one subspecies remaining in the genus Amphibolurus as listed in a post lower on the list.

Like anything, Books become outdated fairly quickly...not only the taxonomy but the advances in Captive Husbandry are fairly impressive.

Hope this Helps,

Scott Eipper

richardwells Oct 19, 2004 06:17 AM

Hi there
Just happened by, and noticed your query. Perhaps I can help a little, so here are the facts - Amphibolurus was originally erected by Wagler in 1830 as a substitute name for Gemmatophora of Kaup (1827) which had itself been based upon Lacerta muricata of White (1790). Thus the original basis for the name Amphibolurus was, ipso facto, the muricatus species-group. Although Wagler's original dismal of Gemmatophora was not without challenge from a nomenclatural point of view, overall Wagler prevailed largely due to support from Boulenger and others, and this resulted in the entrenchment of the name Amphibolurus for most of the Australian Agamidae for the next 100 years or so. The occasional use of Gemmatophora later by some workers even up until the 1980's failed to gain support due to the nomenclatural consequences of such use. This broad application of Amphibolurus ultimately resulted in a mish-mash of species that really had little in common with one another but in the conservative tone of the period big generic assemblages were the order of the day. For better or worse this arrangement prevailed right up until the 1980’s, with Amphibolurus embracing the Bearded Dragons until Glen Storr split the group off as Pogona in 1982. I was told at the time that this change could not be included in time for the 1983 Edition of Cogger’s Reptiles and Amphibians of Australia, so the widespread acceptance of Pogona was delayed somewhat. Thus the work of Obst et al (1988) that you refer to would have been more or less up to date for the period in which it was written, as Cogger’s text, as well as the Zoological Catalogue of Australia – Amphibia and Reptilia volume (Cogger, Cameron and Cogger, 1983) were the prevailing ‘standards’ – and these works all used Amphibolurus for the group. I should also mention that at the time, Storr was heavily criticised for his establishment of Pogona within the sacred catacombs of the Australian Museum, so the delay in its acceptance was not all that surprising I suppose. As for the current (stupid) concept of Ctenophorus, well that’s another matter that needs sorting out too, but for now…I’m going to take the garbage outside before my wife suppresses ME.

Best Regards

Richard Wells

It may have also escaped the attention of some, but Wells and Wellington (1985) actually considered Pogona itself to comprise two groups - the barbatus-group (Pogona), and the microlepidotus-group (for which they proposed the new generic name Uxoriousauria)

AlteredMind99 Oct 20, 2004 10:04 AM

Thank you all very much for clearing that up for me. Does anyone know if there is an updated version of that book that i cold purchase?

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1.0 green iguana-Deitrich
1.1 Common Boa-Un-Named, Ursula
1.0 Ball Python-Anabell (go figure!)
1.0 Red Tegu-Uteg
1.0 Albino Cal King-Pig
0.1 Mexican Black King-Morticia
1.1 Bearded Dragons-Unnamed, Hanabil
1.0 Albino San Diego Gopher-Unnamed
0.1 Hermans tort-Esio
1.1 JCP-Milton, Medusa
1.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Snow Corn-Unnamed
1.0 Hypo Okeetee Corn-Unnamed
0.1 Motley Okeetee-Unnamed
1.0 Western Hoggie-Wyrm
0.0.1 Rose Hair Taruntla-Unnamed
2.0 Leopard Geckos-Reptar, Pogo
4.1 cats-Tucker,Poe,Abhib,Emerald, Felicity
0.1 Bullmastiff-Asha

Scott Eipper Oct 21, 2004 05:43 AM

Altered Mind,

Current taxonomy most people follow Steve Wilson and Gerry Swan's Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia. As for husbandry...I'd try the Bearded Dragon forum here @ Kingsnake.

Scott Eipper

richardwells Oct 21, 2004 06:28 AM

Try Bibliomania!
P.O. Box 58355
Salt Lake City, UT 84158
USA
Phone/Fax: 1-801-562-2660
Email: Breck@Herplit.com

Good Luck

Richard Wells

CKing Oct 22, 2004 10:26 PM

Unfortunately, it is not possible to put all the unnecessary taxonomic proposals in a garbage bag and dispose of them so that we will never see them again. The invalid names live on as part of the synonymy of a species.

richardwells Oct 23, 2004 01:46 AM

...and when the garbage truck arrives, don't forget to load it up with all the genetic rubbish that masquerades for authoritative opinion in taxonomy as well...

Richard Wells

CKing Oct 23, 2004 06:43 PM

Again, it is unfortunate that untenable taxnomic proposals from moleular systematists (who cannot distinguish a lineage from a species or a genus) cannot simply be buried in a land fill. Hence we are likely to have to endure taxonomic chaos for the foreseeable future.

richardwells Oct 23, 2004 11:05 PM

Yes, to be sure, the sheer tonnage of such research articles that have begun to clog the waste cycle will lead to chaos if only through the lack of space to dump them. If I may, I'd just like to slightly digress here, for your comment made me recall an event a few years ago when I was introduced to the World of the Molecular Systematist.
I have always felt that the real testing ground of any classification is the field and the living creatures' interaction with their particular environment. In this age of the laboratory zoologist everyone is being forced into ever refined areas of specialization. As desirable as this may be, many of these specialists would agree that it also has a number of serious short-comings. It is just so easy to be blinded by one's own brilliance the more one specializes - it's a bit like the old stake driven deeply into the ground - plenty of depth but poor overall impact at the broader level.
Now, an interesting example occurred once while I was on a field trip in eastern Australia. I had been hired to collect specimens, as is often the case, for a university research project studying the molecular biology of marsupials. On this particular occasion I was accompanied by a number of female post-graduate students who all considered themselves experts in their various areas of mammalogy - and with some justification I suppose, because I couldn't understand much of what they were talking about. Finding animals in their natural habitat often depends upon being very quiet...hence I usually do not take dogs or women with me on field trips if it can be avoided because they often just create so much noise and complication. What with spiders jumping on them, the inevitable rest breaks and of course the incessant talking, any serious field work has to suffer. But they offered money for my services, and like any good intellectual prostitute or zoological mercenary, principles take a back seat to the need to pay the rent. As we searched for specimens, I just kept thinking how strange it was that biologists seem to constantly forget that reproduction is the prime directive in nature, and all this chasing knowledge can have serious genetic consequences - particularly for females. Yet here they were...a number of our populations' finest - a veritable Miss World Pageant if the truth be known - babbling about molecules and genes in country that can kill you stone dead in an instant if you don't play by its rules. On this particular trip the bush was fairly humming with the chatter of out-groups, satellites, markers and sequences. It was all a mystery to me, but as I said most of them were fairly attractive, so I wasn't really interested in their intellects - and being a herpetologist - well, you know what I mean...
Anyway, back to the point...Strangely, none of them had had sufficient field experience to be able to locate the animals that they were the Authorities on. They were great in genes and magnificent on molecules but a bit weak on life. That's fair enough though, given that it can take half a life-time to get a Degree, and field work doesn't leave much time for a normal life. But what really stunned me was when one of the persons responsible for work on the molecular systematics of Pseudocheirus peregrinus (Ring-tail Possums)- didn't know what the hell it was when they finally observed the creature in the flesh! She had spent years peering at their molecules without having the opportunity to see the whole animal. Sadly, she actually thought it was a strange rat when I caught one for her...When I pointed out that it was actually a Ring-tail Possum, it was plain she felt a little violated by the experience. I just mumbled something like, "oh well, we all make mistakes, after all possums and rats ARE both mammals" ...as I wondered off into the bush on my own to look for death adders...
And in the years since I have often had cause to wonder if other molecular systematists could have benefited from a bit more direct contact with nature...

Richard Wells

CKing Oct 24, 2004 12:07 PM

Specialization is unfortunately an unavoidable fact of life as no one can ever hope to be an Aristotle of the 21st century. The emphasis on molecular and cellular biology is understandable but also unfortunate. The following passage from the book Natural History of Amphibians says it very well:

"In recent years teaching and research in natural history have declined in popularity, and greater focus is being given to cellular and molecular studies at many colleges and universities. On some campuses, natural history studies have never existed or have been eliminated completely. While the importance of studies at the level of molecules and cells is unquestioned, it is equally important to study life at the other end of the spectrum of biological organization—whole organisms and their interactions in nature. To paraphrase George Gaylord Simpson, knowing all there is to know about a lion's molecules and cells will not tell you why a lion roars."

As important as natural history and ecology are to the understanding of biological organisms, molecular data is indispensable to our understanding of evolutionary history. Hence I disagree with your categorization of molecular and genetic data as garbage. Often the real problem in molecular systematics is not the data, but the interpretation of data. Nevertheless there are some molecular studies which were improperly done and the results are thus unreliable. For example, there was one study which tried to examine relationships among the ratsnakes but which used the American descendants of a European ratsnake, namely Lampropeltis, as the outgroup. An outgroup species is chosen because it shares ancestral characters with members of an ingroup because of shared ancestry. By choosing an outgroup carefully, such shared ancestral characters can be found and these characters can then be used to build a phylogenetic tree. For example, by choosing the chimpanzee as an outgroup, a molecular systematists studying the evolution of living human populations can determine which genetic markers are ancient rather than recently evolved. This is not possible if an outgroup is not available. What the scientist did by choosing Lampropeltis as an outgroup was equivalent to choosing, say, a human being as an outgroup when studying the relationships among the chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan. The genetic markers shared by, say, a human and a chimp are of course not shared ancestral characters among all of the apes. In fact such characters are of course most likely recently evolved, after the human-chimp lineage had split from the gorialla-orangutan lineage. Therefore a tree built with data from such a study is likely to be unreliable. It is in actuality silly mistakes like these which are sometimes made by molecular systematists which present obstacles to their acceptance by other systematists and biologists.

Even when molecular systematists are able to avoid the pitfalls of silly mistakes, sometimes they do come up with conclusions that are contradictory to, or otherwise not supported by, their own data. An example would be the study of relationships among the rubber boa populations. According to the mtDNA data, all populations of rubber boas are more closely related to each other than they are to their closest relative, the rosy boa. The authors determined that the southern rubber boa is a different species even though there is nothing in the mtDNA data to support that conclusion. In fact, even if we use Hennig’s criterion to delimit taxa, an approach that is favored by at least some of the authors of the paper on the rubber boa, the entire complex of boas can be considered a single species, since they are all descended from a single ancestor, and no descendant population of that common ancestor has been left out. The entire rubber boa complex is a holophyletic group. And of course breeding experiments conducted by Richard Hoyer have shown that there is no premating or postmating isolation between the southern rubber boa and the northern populations. Yet the southern rubber boa was named a different species on the basis of several unreliable morphological characters by these authors. Their conclusion of the status of the rubber boa really has nothing to do with the genetic data. It is thus DNA studies like those on the ratsnakes and rubber boas which give the opponents of molecular data (e.g. systematists who rely on morphology) fodder for their arguments that DNA studies are unreliable.

When correctly done and carefully interpreted, DNA studies simply are indispensible. In many cases, DNA studies confirm conclusions made by morphologists. For example, morphologists had concluded that Lampropeltis is a descendant of Elaphe, and this is confirmed by mtDNA data. Genetic studies have shown that whales are in fact descendants of a member of the Mammalian order Artiodactyla. The closest relative of whales are in fact the hippo, the pig and cows according to DNA data. Sure enough recently discovered fossil evidence shows that the leg bones of whales contain the characteristic found only in the leg bones of artiodactyls. Whales are descended from an artiodactyl!

In other cases, molecular studies have revealed convergent evolution among closely related species (for example within the same genus), which may well be impossible to prove otherwise and something that few would suspect in the absence of molecular data.

In conclusion, while I agree with you and with Robert C. Stebbins that there is currently an overemphasis on molecular data, I also agree with Stebbins that molecular data is useful and important. Some of the molecular studies are in fact garbage, and some of the conclusions from the genetic studies are also garbage, even if the data is not. But I think you mean that there is a large number of genetic studies that are garbage. I would agree with that. I hope you are not stating that most or all of the studies based on molecules are garbage because it is simply not the case.

CKing Nov 03, 2004 03:22 AM

Went to the library and dug out the paper. Did not read through it all the way, but the introduction was interesting. Storr basically split Amphibolurus because he thought there were too many species in it, which is of course not really a good reason for reclassification. Consider for example, the genus Hyla (Hylidae) or the genus Anolis (Gekkonidae). Each of these genera have far more species than "Amphibolurs sensu lato." Little wonder he was criticized by other scientists at that time, as Wells is suggesting. The characters Storr used, i.e. presence or absence of femoral pores in certain parts of the body, seem trivial and may well be unreliable. Too bad DNA data appears to be lacking for these lizards, so it is not possible to verify whether the species within Pogona form a natural group or not. If these pores are only superficial similarities or if they are retained ancestral characters that have been lost in some but retained by others, then the genus Pogona may well be polyphyletic.

WW Nov 03, 2004 07:05 AM

>> If these pores [...] are retained ancestral characters that have been lost in some but retained by others, then the genus Pogona may well be polyphyletic.

Actually, in that case, it would be paraphyletic.

Interesting to see that you are objecting to taxa defined by ancestral features. Can we now expect your campaign against the continued use of "Reptilia", traditional "Elaphe", etc.?

WW
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WW Home

CKing Nov 05, 2004 12:58 AM

Me:
If these pores [...] are retained ancestral characters that have been lost in some but retained by others, then the genus Pogona may well be polyphyletic.

WW:
"Actually, in that case, it would be paraphyletic."

Me:
Not quite. If the defining characters of Pogona are retained ancestral characters, but they are treated erroneously as shared derived characters, then Pogona would indeed be polyphyletic.

It would be best if you refer to fig. 3.71 of S.J. Gould's Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History. In this figure, suppose the genus Pogona is represented by the species 1, 2, 3 and 4. This genus is polyphyletic because the stem group (all those species below the dotted line) is excluded. You may ask why these species from the stem group are excluded. That is because the character defining the genus Pogona is thought (albeit erroneously) to be a shared derived character (or synapomorphy) even though it is in reality a symplesiomorph (or shared ancestral character). A systematist who mistook a symplesiomorph as a synapomorph therefore treats the genus Pogona, comprising species 1, 2, 3 and 4, as a crown group that shares a recent common ancestor. To illustrate that erroneous assumption, simply draw a set of dotted lines connecting species 1, 2, 3, and 4 to a single ancestor. Of course this set of dotted lines represent a false phylogeny, but a false phylogeny is exactly what one gets if one mistook symplesiomorphs as synapomorphs. If a systematist is cognizant of the fact that a character is a symplesiomorph, then all the stem species would be included, and the resultant group would be paraphyletic instead of polyphyletic.

WW:
Interesting to see that you are objecting to taxa defined by ancestral features. Can we now expect your campaign against the continued use of "Reptilia", traditional "Elaphe", etc.?

Me:
As I explained above, I do not object to paraphyletic groups. I only object to polyphyletic groups. Pogona can indeed be a polyphyletic group even if the similarities defining this genus genus are shared ancestral characters instead.

That said, not all paraphyletic groups should be recognized. It depends on whether such groups are homogeneous. For example, one can certainly recognize a paraphyletic group of tetrapods which retain the ancestral character of all 4 limbs. That means all species that have lost some or all of their limbs would be excluded from this taxon. Such a group would be very heterogeneous since it would exclude the caecilians, snakes, amphisbaenians, whales and many legless lizards while including frogs, salamanders, most lizards, the tuatara, turtles, crocodilians, birds, and most mammals.

Fortunately, the genus Elaphe and the traditional Reptilia, while paraphyletic, is also quite homogeneous, unlike the hypothetical paraphyletic tetrapod group above. Hence it would be wise to continue recognizing Elaphe and Reptilia instead of the inane alternatives proposed by Utiger et al. and Gauthier, respectively.

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