Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

I'm new to all these things, and I want to learn more. I don't plan on buying a venemous snake, or defanging one. But I was wondering if there is anyway to defang it or to permanently remove the venom from the snake. Thanks in advance.

Ahhh...

A snake can be surgically altered to make the delivery of venom impossible. However, it's unethical for a VMD to do so. That does not stop people from trying. Please see the link to see how badly the snakes are injured in the process.

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/mamba/index.html

Best,

Al
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You can't enjoy your collection if you're dead.

Yeah, since the time I posted this, I did some research about the subject. I do agree that it's unethical to remove the ducts. But I'm still interested to find out how, in scientifical terms, the venom ducts/glands are removed, and how some surgeons are able to keep the head from shriking or looking totally destroyed. I wasn't able to find any information about that. Personally, I've had an extreme facination for King Cobras since I was a child, however, with my level of experience (0), I'm not planning on purchasing one just yet. As for my first snake, I'm going to settle for a constrictor until I'm able to buy a venemous snake.

Anyway, I hope I can find more information on this procedure.

Thanks for your help.

Hi Again:

Ok...what I know from the general discussions on this website & others in the never ending debate regarding Venomoids. The gland & ducts are removed through an incision in the roof of the mouth overlying the anatomical location of the duct & gland. The tissue is removed and a implant, glass, teflon or other inert material fills the void preventing the shrunken head syndrome you mention. The proceedure is repeated on the other side.

I might also be worth mentioning that in Elapids you need to get ALL of the gland & duct out, so it does not grow back; creating an ugly but well deserved suprise!

Al
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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

Oh ok. And by ugly surprise, what do you mean exactly? How is the head deformed if you do that?

That if all of the gland is not removed....there is a chance that it can regrow. If that happens, and the owner is not aware of it......Someone gets to take a dirt nap.

LOL...Thanks for the nice translation McNasty...

I mean if the gland grows back the snake will be venomous again, then if it bit someone they would think it's "safe" and not go to the hospital and DIE!

The heads are deformed by the removal of the gland tissue so there is nothing to keep the shape of it's head.

Lets say, a Woman has a subcutanious mastectomy for cancer of the breast. If she does not have a silicone implant her skin that forms the outside of her breast will look like a deflated balloon.* That is why they use implants on snakes & humans to make a natural looking outside appearence.

Got it now?

Al

* No locker room comments required, Breast Cancer and the disfigurment it causes is a serious issue facing far too many women.
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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.

np

Thanks guys. It's really good to know these things. Thanks again.

Why do you say it is unethical to surgically remove the venom glands from a venomous snake? We (I mean people here) have always surgically altered animals to suit our purposes. We spay/neuter dogs, cats, livestock, etc., and we also de-claw cats. We crop the ears and tails of several species of dogs. Sometimes we even surgically alter ourselves -- tying tubes, vasectomies, plastic surgery, etc. Why is removing the venom glands of a snake any different? As long as the surgery is performed by a knowledgeable and experienced veterinarian and proper post op care is provided, I see little wrong with this procedure.

RP

this procedure is never done by a licensed vet, if you can prove me wrong, please feel free. Although, there has been a time in the past where I have heard of it being done, BEFORE ethics became an issue.

B) People seem to think that spaying and neutering is a good defense for people to keep venomoids. However, spaying and neutering are done to prevent certain diseases, not just for keeping the populations down, nice try though. If you can find a reason that removing the glands of a venomous snake is helpful to that animal, once again, please feel free.

C). People have plastic surgery, yes they do, and they do because people have that right to make a decision to have their bodies altered, the snake doesn't. When was the last time you spoke with a snake that said it wanted it's venom glands ripped out?

It's amazing how many pro-venomoiders have the same logic, all of which seems to have absolutely no thought behind it.
For once I would like to see a venomoider have the b@lls to say, I have a venomoid cobra because it's cool to show off and I like to play with it. Or, I sell venomoids because it is an easy way to make money off of ignorant and lazy people, without having to get a real job and be a normal part of society. I would also like to find one venomoid dealer who can actually prove that he has a licensed vet doing the surgery for him.
Wishful thinking

I don't necessarily agree with the reasons behind why many people own venomoid snakes. I do not own one, and I don't think I would buy one. I think in some cases, it is appropriate to use venomoids. For example, if the snakes are used in educational shows, I think it would be safer for everyone to use a venomoid. But at the same time, I think that the procedure should be performed by a licensed and experienced veterinarian. I don't think you or anyone is qualified to say that the procedure is never performed by a vet. I know of at least one vet who has performed the duct removal. He is an excellent vet, and takes the utmost care when doing the procedure. Vets most certainly do perform these kinds of operations. Of course there are butchers out there who do maim their snakes, and I'm vehemently against this kind of stuff. These people should be prosecuted.

I think venomoids have their place in the world of herpetoculture, but only when the procedure is performed correctly and with proper care.

RP

You mentioned educational shows, why do you feel they are safer for educational shows? Safer for whom, the person doing the show or the people at the show? If the person doing the show can't properly handle his snakes in a safe manner, he shouldn't have them. If the people at the show are in any danger, the person isn't handling his snakes properly. There is NO reason why any snake at an educational show should get near anyone that is in the audience. If it does, once again, the person is not handling his snakes properly and should not be qualified to do any display. Pro-venomiders seem to mention educational animals quite often, yet I have never seen, nor met anyone who actually has seen, an educational display with venomoids. If a person needs an unloaded snake to do displays for insurance purposes, then they can't afford to give the snake proper care and shouldn't have them to begin with. I have never met anyone who has had any trouble doing shows with loaded snakes, yet you always hear venomoiders talk about insurance.
If a person needs to use venomoids in a show, they need recommend their audience go to a zoo, where they will learn more from qualified people, who value the snakes health and well being, as much as the person handling it.

Been away from a computer for a few days. Just got back on the forum. Good post, and good points indeed. I don't have much to say in response except that I would feel much safer using a venomoid snake in an educational show. Even the best and most qualified handlers get bitten, and when you're in front of an audience, anything can happen. I always think about the what-ifs, and stranger things have happened than a spectator (or handler) getting bitten during a snake show. I agree that these things should not happen, but sometimes they do.

As to the long term health of the animal, that is a concern as well. I'm not sure there is any real evidence yet as to how well venomoids do over the long haul when given proper care and when the surgery is performed correctly and with the appropriate post-op attention. If what I have read is accurate, many venomoids do just fine and are able to digest their food with no problems over many, many years. On the other hand, I also realize that many snakes die during the procedure or shortly thereafter or are permanently disfigured. I find that deplorable and non-veterinarians who are performing these procedures should be prosecuted.

I understand why people are opposed to venomoids. But in some cases, and it just may be personal preference, I have no problems with venomoids -- as long as the procedure is done correctly. In my opinion, that is the number one concern. If the snakes are going to be altered (just like with any animal), I think it should be done in such a way as to make the procedure as pain free as possible.

RP

Robert:

I think that most if not all of those proceedures are unethical too. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

Not to fan the flames of the venomoid topic but I have yet to see anyone promoting surgically altering venomous snakes give the contact # for a Vet that was actually doing this proceedure. It is done by a bunch a back room hacks thinking they're surgeons.

Al
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You can't enjoy your collection if it kills you.