Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, I've been keeping snakes all my life, burms, retics, balls, colubrids, blah blah. Anyways, a little over a year ago I got my first hot snakes. A southern pacific, mohavie, and blacktail rattlers. They where awesome. I kept them for about a year, no issues at all, no close calls. Used gloves and hooks to handle (only for cage cleaning). I had to get rid of them because my girlfriend and me moved in together, and of course she said HELL no to those as pets. I got an albino green burm instead.

Anyways, with that brief history of my time with hots, my question is this: I have a chance at getting a Gaboon Viper for free (long story, good friend, blah blah). All I have to do is pay for the surgery to make him venamoid (DO NOT POST ABOUT THE VENAMOID PART, I HAVE MY OPINION, YOU HAVE YOURS) because my girlfriend will only let me get him if he is venamoid. I've always wanted one, but never had one.

Since he is venamoid is there any other reason I shouldn't get him? I'm just looking for good advice. People that have kept venamoid gaboons, please give me your advice. The main reason I'm nervouse is of course the 2 inch fangs. You see, I'm a tattoo artist, if he bit me for some reason in my right hand, I'm worried about nerve damage and what not, which puts me out of work. I plan on wearing gloves, but [bleep] happens.

hey bro. i've 1.1 CB '00 WA Gaboons. They're both venomoids. Here's my take on the issue. I'm 21, and have been keeping snakes for years, since I was about 13. I've had everything from cbb boas and ball pythons to WC cottons, copperheads, and mocassins (sp?). I don't have any fear of venemous animals, but theres a few reasons why I no longer keep them. #1: Liability. The "what-if" is too big of an issue for me. I have people at my house constantly, most of whom know little or nothing about snakes. IF for some reason, one of my gaboons got out, I wouldn't have to worry about someone getting bit and potentially dying. I've been sued before, it's not fun. #2: The main issue with gaboons is the way they strike. They hit EXTREMELY hard, fast, and with precision accuracy. Most gaboon-keepers will tell you that they have never seen their gabbie miss it's target, and I can second that. #3: It's practice. You've kept rattlers before, so in all honesty I see no reason for you NOT to keep hot gaboons, except its the one compromise your girl has to your getting the snake. You're obviously qualified to handle hot gaboons, but because of your circumstances you're choosing not too.

However, I will say this. Venomoid Gaboons more often than not, DO suffer from head shrinkage after the surgery. There are some examples (like my male gabbie) whose head(s) are fine. And then there are those like my female whose head is a bit shrunken in. As unfortunate as it is, it keeps me sleeping at night knowing that there are not two snakes in my house that could kill me if they got lose.

As far as the fangs go, you're absolutely right. They DO have HUGE fangs, and they WILL inflict damage. Just because the snake has no venom does not mean that a bite will not cause serious injury. I still handle my gabbies with full gloves and hooks, or tongs if they're in a particulary bad mood. I take no chances when it comes to snakes like this, in my opinion, it is always better to be safe than sorry with an animal like this.

Hope this helps with your decision bro. If you have any more questions, send me a message.

n/p

Hi:

Everybody seems to forget that there are some serious pathogens in the the mouths of snakes, even Venomoids. Jim Harrison (Kentucky Reptile Zoo) provided information about two BAD infections caused by venomoids that almost cost the keepers life & limbs.

Venomoids are NOT completely harmless.

Al
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The reason congressmen try so hard to get re-elected is that they would hate to have to live under the laws they've passed.

Good point, but I have to worry about that with almost any snake.

If I were you, I'd be more worried about nerve damage from that big yellow lump of a snake you own. The damage from a 16ft burm bite compared to the damage from a venomoid gaboon bite is like comparing being shot with a 12 gauge (burm) versus being shot with a .22 (gaboon). And the Gaboon is more likely to LET GO.

You see I'm not worried about the burm wrapping me up, I'm talking strictley bites here. A 16 foot burms teeth don't even compare to a 5 foot gaboons fangs. If one of the fangs hit a nerve, it could cause problems. Or hit an autery for that matter. See I work at a tattoo shop, and our piercing needles are 2 inches long, all I can think about for a gaboon bite would be grabbing those needles and just slamming two into my forearm. Not a good thought, and I'm sure not a good feeling.

I'm talking about the actual BITE of a 16ft burm. Have you ever seen a LARGE constrictor bite? Theres a "bite pic" floating around somewhere of Dave Barker (i think) after being bitten by a 15ft? reticulated python. The damage inflicted is amazing. If someone has a link to it hopefully they will post it.

Believe me, I understand that gaboons have the longest fangs. However theres only *2* the rest are laughable, and the 15lb venomoid gaboon will most likely bite and let go, leaving you with 2 deep punctures and a few tiny pinpricks. The burm on the other hand, has hundreds of 1/2" long teeth, which it will hold onto you with, while coiling its 150lbs onto you. Even if it DIDNT wrap you, the effect it has on soft human skin is horrendous. Aside from deep punctures, it will actually cause severe lacerations, including severed tendons and/or veins depending on where you are bit.

I just had to laugh, at the fact that you have a burm, yet the only thing you're worried about with obtaining this gaboon is possible nerve damage from a gab bite. If you use all the correct safety precautions theres no way the thing should even come CLOSE to your hand. Good luck with your burm though.

One has to consider the force of a large gaboon bite as well. An adult gaboon viper has a large head, it not only has two fangs but rows of standard large teeth as well. A defensive bite from almost any snake is bite and let go. If a Gaboon Viper thinks your hand is food and then nails it, it WILL NOT let go. Gaboons to not strike and release prey.

All things considered, I'd rather take a slap from a large python and take my chances there. Two long fangs can do damage, especially to your eyes. The other thing too is you are not going move out of the way of a Gaboon Viper. I have dodged large pythons, its impossible to dodge a gaboon strike, its simply too fast and powerful.

Are you saying that being bitten in the EYE is a possibility with a GABOON!?!? What on EARTH are you talking about? I seriously doubt in the WHOLE history of the entire WORLD that ANYONE has EVER been bitten in the EYE by a gaboon. And honestly, I dont really understand how you can even think for a minute that a 15lb gaboon has more force behind its strike than a 150lb constrictor. Aside from that, the speed and force of the strike is not the issue. Its the DAMAGE I'm refering to. It's obvious to me, that neither you nor the original poster has had ANY experience dealing with a large, healthy, angry constrictor. Nor have you seen the aftermath of an attack on a human.

In addition, I never said being bitten by a venomoid gaboon would be a walk in the park. If I had to choose between the 2, it would be a tough decision. I wanted to make this kid aware that his pet burm is just as capable, if not more so of inflicting a bite to him causing serious nerve, tendon, and/or blood vessel damage. I believe I've said, and RE-said everything I possibly can on the subject. Take care.

"Are you saying that being bitten in the EYE is a possibility with a GABOON!?!? What on EARTH are you talking about? "

What I am talking about is this. With a venomoid handling certainly would be a possibility, wouldn't it? All it would take for this to happen is someone handing such a snake and having it within range of your eyes. Snake strikes for some reason, hits your eye, there you go. Point is that your eyelids are thick enough to stop pretty much any python bite, their teeth are not long enough in most cases. A gaboon viper has sufficient fang length and strike power to pierce your eye lids.

Since the topic was about handling a venomoid, I wanna ask you how YOU could never consider this a possibility?

As far as strike force between a large python and a large Gaboon...all I am going to ask you is if you have ever seen a large gaboon hit large prey. Its up in the air as to which has a stonger hit, but discounting a gaboon's strength based on size and weight is silly.

You said "Since the topic was about handling a venomoid, I wanna ask you how YOU could never consider this a possibility?"

It's not a possibility because why on earth would it be close enough to your face to bite you in the EYE?!?! If ever someone actually did get bitten in the EYE by a gaboon, they whole heartedly deserved it. You made another statement about no python being able to penetrate an eyelid....I'm not sure I want to even dignify that statement with a response. Actually, I'm positive I won't dignify that one. As a matter of fact, I may go bang my head against a wall for fun now.

Well, Dave Barker also tends to agree about the eyelid statement and pythons, bang away.

Bottom line is this: If someone handles a venomoid gaboon viper and its within range of your eyes, which with a gaboon could be down by your waist depending on how large the gaboon is, getting a hit in the eye is possible. Its a consideration someone should take into account before they decide to free handle any venomoid with large fangs.

If you stop banging your head on things you'd probably see this.

"You made another statement about no python being able to penetrate an eyelid....I'm not sure I want to even dignify that statement with a response."

I said in most cases, I never said 'No Python'.

If you are going to act like a prick at least read someone's posts entirely so you don't look silly.

Of you to resort to name calling. I'm sorry but your post, and continued postings about being bitten in the eye remain to be some of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on these forums in a very long time. Happy herping, and maybe we should all wear safety glasses just in case?

Why is it so hard for you to believe that if some reject is freehandling a large gaboon the person can take a hit in the face...... Have you ever seen what a big pissed off gaboon can do when it wants to bite???? I have gaboons that range from 12 inches to over 6 feet..... And you better believe that 6 footer has a strike range of ATLEAST 3 feet and can do so at an angle between 0 and 360 degrees.... The chances of a facial bite are near impossible if you are using proper tool and technique but you and all of your body parts are fair game if you free handle..... And freehandling will most likely be the case when one owns a void.....

It's not that I dont believe it CAN happen. I understand that if someone is SERIOUSLY lacking in brainpower, and ALLOWS a gaboon to come within striking distance of their eye/face they CAN take a hit. But how ignorant does someone have to be for that to happen? And as I already stated, if it WERE to happen, the person whole heartedly deserved it.

One of your statements pretty much sums it up "The chances of a facial bite are near impossible if you are using proper tool and technique." You also used the term "reject" to describe a person who would be prone to such a bite. I would think this type of person would also have a FEAR of such a bite. I feel fortunate that I myself, use PROPER handling tools and techniques thereby making such a fear seem humorous.

Well people like you and I do have the brain power to dramticly lowwer the chances of being bitten in the face or anywhere but I think you are giving human kind in general, too much credit....LOL.... There are alot of stupid people in the world..... There is actually a picture of some fool that was bitten in the face by a rattler.... It actually shows the snake about an eigth of an inch from sink its fangs into his cheak.... Then it showed the after effect..... Did you see the croc vid in the venomous forum???? I would not stick my arm in a crocs mouth, but obviously there are people in the world that will....

And yes I did see the clip. Natural selection is a wonderful thing.

I tell you exactly what you are acting like.

Tell me, have you ever kept a gaboon? Have you ever seen one strike at prey or lash out? You sure seem to think you know everything there is to know.

The bottom line is this: I does not matter how unlikely you think it is to happen, it is possible. Since this guy is asking about handling a venomoid gaboon, it is indeed possible. If you have a large enough Gaboon, then holding it down by your waist in indeed within a possible strike range for your eyes with one. Since you act like you know everything there is to know, you should have been able to extrapolate that without being directly told about it.

The chance is extremely slim, if it were to happen though you would suffer real damage. It's something to consider. I am not arguing about who deserves what and what is possible if you follow proper protocol. I am simply pointing out a scenerio which he may have not considered when thinking about free handling a void gaboon.

You have a very standoffish attitude about needing to think you are right, or something. None of your thinking things are silly will change that its a possibility. Just like it doesn't change the fact that with 2 inch fangs a gaboon will be able to damage deep tissues that a python could never reach. If you really knew what you think you know, then you would see its not the most silly thing that has been posted on these forums in awhile.

I really want to know how much experience you have with keeping gaboon vipers and/or other bitis. You seriously act like you have none.

Have I hurt your feelings? If so I appologize. For answers to your questions refer to my post in this thread titled "Well" that was posted in response to GregMM's post titled "Nice". I have no interest in going over my credentials with you. However, I have a question for you which may be the answer to WHY we dont see "Eye to eye". My question is this, please answer truthfully. *Do you or have you ever, free handled venomous or venomoid snakes?* And please, make your answer short and sweet. I grow weary of your feeble attempts at a personal attack.

The gaboon has it hands down. Compare it to stepping on a 1.5" nail, as opposed to jumping into a big heavily thorned rose bush. Yeah they both hurt alot, but which one should you worry about more.
I do not want to know what those fangs feel like sinking deep into my arm/hand, but nor do I want to feel the big teeth of a retic again. Burms cannot even be used as a comparison.
I have taken the big constrictor hits from large Burms, Anancondas, and Retics. Burms and anacondas are not that bad(comparitively), stay calm ,dont pull, dump some very warm water on their mouth and you get a nice set of teeth marks and bruising. A retic is different and the only one I feel worth comparison when it comes to deep tissue damage. They will pull back, their tooth is much longer then other big costrictors, the back edge is sharp, will slice and they know it. As such the bite is drastically different. I lost part of extension capability in my finger after a retic partially severed the tendons in the back of my hand when I was bitten several years back.
Short of big retics and scrubs, I doubt much else could come close to inflicting a puncturing bite that would allow the deep tissue damage and potential for infection of a fanged bite. Every bit of bacteria on them is pushed deep into the muslce/tissue where it cannot be washed or scrubbed out. Two fangs which used to have venom pushed thru them occassionally and as such were kept "clean" now only serve as bacteria receptacles as well. Most bites from venomous snake have little bleeding due to the nature of puntures. Typically all constrictor bites bleed like mad and as a result flush the wound naturally.
The infection is the most potential threat in a venomoid fanged bite. Not the tendon severing, nerve damage, possible artery cut, or bruising.
Notah

An argument on venomoid elapid bites would be much harder to defend against constrictors though.

If a large burm were to bite someone on the back of the hand, it would *not* cause deep puncture wounds, lacerations, penetrate blood vessels, or sever/injure tendons or nerves? The said person would *not* possibly have to seek medical attention for the injury. The person also would *not* have lasting effects from the bite?

From a burm you get a series of torn, ragged punctures causing the lacerations and profuse bleeding, but this is stoppable after about 10 minutes of cold water. Bleeding is key to avoiding infections from injuries, a biological design for survival. Capallaries and vessels are damaged and hemorraged, which is why you get all the crazy colored bruising, but the teeth do not penetrate the hand deep enough to really damage the vital artery inside.
You do suffer tendon trauma due in part to force of the bite not the puncture itself. The burmese teeth just dont cut or penetrate the way a retic tooth or fang will. A broad pinching (high psi)bite such as the blunt tooth of a large alligator would also be able to cause permanent nerve and tendon damage. To a have permanent nerve damage in a hand pretty much takes a severence of finger or nerve from very deep cut to result in a permanent numbing.
An average captive Burmeses' bite just does not carry sufficent factors to warrant medical attention except in extreme cases. The average burmese in the typical hobbyists homes seldom exceed 13 ft when actually laid against a tapemeasure, and average around 10-11ft. A 15-16ft Burm is not commonplace. A VERY large Burmese I will agree could possibly create a bite of neccessary trauma to need a Dr. to check it out and stop the bleeding. I do not think that the potential for infection would come close to equal or exceed that of a 4 ft venomoid gaboon.
My original post was that your greatest potential threat was infection. Secondary infections from the bite of un-altered Bitis and other large fanged Viperidae has been well documented. The venomoid fangs of a of solenoglyph provide all the key factors neccessary for a serious infection. Deep punctures, no or minute bleeding, bacteria accumulation in a now empty tooth duct.
Long term lasting effects are just not that common with burmese bites. Im not saying the potential does not exist somewhere, but if venomoid solenoglyph bites were as commonplace as burm bites which would end up putting you in the hospital more often?
I dont agree that a venomoid should ever be treated as non-venomous. It should always be handled with the same degree of care as "loaded" specimen. I quit working with Burms about 5 yrs ago, I still have my 16yr old male that I bought in high school as a hatchling. If forced to choose I would much rather take a bite off of him then my male retics, and they are the little ones.
Notah Howe

**( If a large burm were to bite someone on the back of the hand, it would *not* cause deep puncture wounds, lacerations, penetrate blood vessels, or sever/injure tendons or nerves? The said person would *not* possibly have to seek medical attention for the injury. The person also would *not* have lasting effects from the bite? )**

You said "A VERY large Burmese I will agree could possibly create a bite of neccessary trauma to need a Dr. to check it out and stop the bleeding."

The rest of your post had absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. I never said that the infection afterwards would be any better or worse than a gaboons bite. The original poster was not concerned with infection, only with potential physical trauma to his "tattooing hand". I'm not quite sure what point, or points of mine you are trying to disprove. However, I thank you for backing me up on the ONLY point I was trying to make. I'll restate it yet again. *A 16ft (that means large) Burmese Python is capable of causing severe trauma in the form of a bite wound to a persons hand.* Any questions?

though not specifically snake related, it gives good overview and lead in as to what can stem from a deep tissue infection.
These cases with the exception of one or two all came post surgery. A process where everything is supposed to be clean.
Some of these have more severe long term consequences than a finger that doesn't extend or some stitches to the hand.
I never intended to start a personal arguement if that indeed has occured, just lend my experience to your question.

Notah

www.eatonhand.com/complic/text11.htm

Id take no chances with a venomoid or a large constrictor.

I couldnt resist

and in rebuttal to myself

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www.thegardensofeden.org

Treat all venomoids as if they were still loaded. The precautions should be the same. Use hooks, shift boxes, etc. Otherwise, the odds of you being cripled due to a fang severing a nerve is probably much less than a car door slamming on your hand, or carpol tunnel syndrome.