Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wonder is there really a market for CB Sudan Plated lizards. Because i have a male and was thinking of getting him a mate, but i dont want to try breeding them if theres not a market, due to two reasons: both lizards would be put under stress and also the babies becasue although i have the room and space they really do better with one on one attention, well i think so at lest. Any imput would be great thanks.
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Leo Gex
1:3 noramls or hi-yellows
1:0 Giant normal phase het for temper albino
1:1 Temper albinos
2? Tangerine
0:1 Blizzared
1:0 patternless
Others:
1 giant day gecko
1 Giant plated lizard
1:1 dogs
and 2:0 chinchillas

>I was wonder is there really a market for CB Sudan Plated lizards.

Unfortunately, probably not. They are still relatively cheap and easy to acquire from the wild, so it's likely they're going to continue to be like Green Iguanas, why by CB when wild-caught is cheaper. There may be a market amongst people specifically looking for CB Plated Lizards, but they would be few and far between. Also, I've been trying with limited success to breed Gerrhosaurus major for three years now and I'd have to say it's not the easiest thing.

>both lizards would be put under stress and also the babies

Breeding can be stressful for the female for sure, but probably not for male. Actual courtship is a somewhat violent affair with some leg and body biting on the behalf of both sexes. And of course egg laying can take a lot out of a female but this is not that big of a deal if she's well conditioned beforehand.

>they really do better with one on one attention, well i think so at lest.

Not sure what you mean here, unless you're talking about specifically interacting with the lizards on a regular basis. I don't handle any of my Plateds except to weigh them or when doing cage cleaning or other extensive work that would neccessitate moving them. However, though I don't handle them, they are not aggressive and will actually eat out of my hand, but if they're picked up they tend to be very spastic.

If you'd like to try your hand at breeding for the fun and experience of it, I'd say go ahead. However, if you're solely hoping to find a market to sell CB offspring I'd say don't bother - it's too complex of a process and the learning curve on getting successful hatches is high - not worth it if you're not truely committed to hatching them out simply for the pleasure of working with the species.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Yes there is a small market for CCB Sudan Plated Lizards. Even though they are not expensive at this time, that will change later on as the Import/Export Laws between the USA & Africa are changing = drive prices up and depand. They are beautiful lizards and are worth breeding, many individuals would gladly pruchase your offspring if advertised on Kingsnake (it is the best for marketability). You don't have to make big $$ to enjoy your animals, producing offspring would easily be demanded since Sudans' procude 1 to 6 offspring per year.

> Even though they are not expensive at this time, that will change later on as the Import/Export Laws between the USA & Africa are changing = drive prices up and depand.

I don't think import/export laws will be changing any time soon between USA and Africa, particularly the regions where Plated Lizards occur. Also, Plateds of varying species are widely occuring over much of Sub-Saharan Africa. An example of another imported species would be the Ball Python. From 1989 to 1993 the number of BPs exported to the US alone increased every year, from over 4000 in '89 to over 25000 in '93 and even to today they are still imported in huge numbers even though every body and his brother are captive breeding them. So, in my opinion and based on the continued import of other species [which I'd add are at the very least CITES II, while Plateds are not even listed on CITES], of reptiles coming out of Africa, there will be no change in imports in the near future.

>They are beautiful lizards and are worth breeding, many individuals would gladly pruchase your offspring if advertised on Kingsnake (it is the best for marketability).

They certainly are interesting and I would recommend breeding them for one's own purposes. However, I do think the market would be very small and unless you are breeding and selling other species of lizards, the process involved in setting up shipping accounts with FedEx, UPS, etc. and then shipping those animals is hardly worth it to only sell a couple of lizards per year. Now, if you were really committed to breeding multiple pairs of G. major in order to have a larger scale breeding operation then you might be able to at least break even. I enjoy Plateds but frankly they're an obscure species that is usually purchased by a beginning herper because of the cheap price of the wild-caught adults. You can probably sell any offspring, but again, cost-wise it's just probably not worth it ultimately. The whole group of lizards needs far more publicity than they get before there will truly be a decent commercial following.

>You don't have to make big $$ to enjoy your animals, producing offspring would easily be demanded since Sudans' procude 1 to 6 offspring per year.

Again, you can certainly breed your animals for the enjoyment and the experience, however as I mentioned in my prior post I have attempted breeding of G. major three years in a row [working on year 4], and have yet to get viable hatches. These lizards will breed easily enough however properly incubating eggs is very difficult as they require high ambient humidity during the first two thirds of the incubation followed by a drying period near the end. If Ingo Kober would happen to read this post he might be able to shed some light on breeding/incubation as he's bred at least G. flavivulgaris and in communications I've had with him he's indicated that hatching out eggs can be done but is tough and takes some skill and attention. Also, there are plenty of zoos with more money, resources, and time than the average hobbyist who have bred various species of Gerrhosaurus and have had frequent difficulties in attaining successful hatches along with decent survivability of the offspring.

Anyway, not to sound like I'm ranting, but an individual should have more than a passing fancy before breeding any species and that being said, breeding Gerrhosaurus is by no means impossible but is instead moderately difficult. And finally, imports from poor African countries of these very common lizards are likely to continue unabated.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Although Importation of African species appears not to have changed much with with Ball Pythons, one must consider that most of the commonly Imported species such as the Ball Python are "Farm Raised" that are Imported into the USA. With decreasing population of uncommon and "Cheap" species they are Imported in fewer numbers. One can certainly factor in the declining prices of Popular species due to mass breeding as a uncertain variable for what the Future Market may be. Most of the changes to CITES varies yearly with the Wild Population Counts and Country of Origins own Wildlife Laws,and species Exportation Laws. So listed or not on CITES, species of Plated Lizards will not automatically be pouring into the USA forever.

As far as the Breedings making it Cost Effect, most breeders projects are high dollar/high turnover (such as Dwarf Monitors, Bearded Dragons, Womas, ect.) which makes breeding of the species they love Cost Effective. Even just a Hobbyist can breed the species they love and make some money but again this is not the point. It is those of us who breed the less considered species who gain the knowlegde and skills other do not have for repetative sucessfull breeding. Marketing is advertising a way of selling your offspring with higher demand. One does not need to sell Albino BPs to sell animals. All species of Gerrhosaurus & Zonosaurus have been sucessfully bred in the USA & Europe for years; although there is not a stampede to buy them there is a market and not exactly Dirt Cheap Import Pricing. Everyone has different opinions on what to breed and whats going to sell at how much, only the Future Market will unvail itself later.

The Incubation of G. flavivulgaris, G. nigrolineatus, G. validus is not as difficult as some Zoos have had trouble with. I have breed & hatched several generations of African and Madagascan Plated Lizards with no problems, just paying attention to the needs they require. Most of the other Private
Breeder I share data with DO NOT OFFER Husbandry Information or SELL CCB Plateds and have sucessfull breedings/hatchings everytime for over a decade.

Frank Retes is a good example of how to sucessfully breed monitor lizards while at the same time Zoos & Breeders across the Globe didn't even come close. Why try to Breed to be another Business venture, Breed them because you can. And they will sell to people who want them. Why do you think this Forum is here if there is no Future Market. Like all Reptile Species: Imports start coming in cheap, 10 yr gap price starts to rise as all the "HOT/POPULAR" selling species drop in price as expected, then other species are sought after to open new marketable animals. Even the Leopard Gecko still is in demand/price is Low/affordable to all. Another one, Zonosaurus quadrilineatus, Imported early 1990 selling @ $30 each now at $100 WC with CCB offspring that won't be available on the market for several years.

Bottom Line is Breed the animals especially if others are unsucessfull. You do not need to justify to the cost to anyone wether you are a Hobbyist, Business, or Private Breeder since those who are unsucessfull cannot justify the loss.

Well, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding importation, marketability, etc.

However, you raise a couple interesting questions. Most of my information regarding Plated Lizard breeding has indicated although it can be done, it is not common either in the private sector or in zoos, although I believe the Honolulu Zoo has had some success in recent years with their G. major. You say you have bred many Gerrhosaurus spp. along with Zonosaurus, over several generations. I'd like to know how your caging is set up as well as how you've incubated your eggs.

The second thing I was wondering about was [and maybe I read this wrong or it was in how it was worded], but you mentioned you knew other people who'd bred Gerrhosaurus and would not share their husbandry or breeding techniques with others? Why not share that information, it can only help advance the hobby? Anything that can lessen the pressure on the wild populations - assuming people eventuall become successful enough to sell offspring - would be a benefit [except to those who try to make a living collecting the wild stuff in Africa].
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Yes I also agree to disagree, that is what debate is. what works for some may not work for others. I do respect and appreciate your opinions and feedback.

Many breeders do not share husbandry or breeding techniques mainly due to the expenses of Time, Data Collection, Cost of DNA Secquence Testing, and the fact that information of this kind has been abused for marketing purposes & claim of Authentic Author of this Information. It is a shame that a few bad apples have set forth a sense of Protectionism with the breeders doing well. I myself could write you privately on a few species, must wait until I am feeling up to par with current Illness. I try to help those in need and am open to others different experiences and problems. You may agree or not on this one: sometimes we try too hard setting up naturalistic and when one looks back upon it realizes the animals are not in the wild so this different approach to their needs works.

i also have a male and i cannot find a female for him, i know i could sell the babies to people i know as far as the first clutch goes but after that?????