Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys,
Someone just posed this question on our rescue's website forum and I thought it was a great topic for a larger group discussion. So what do you think?

Should Reptile Rescues work with Reptile Breeders?

Our rescue does not provide adoptions for breeding. Partially for our own reasons, and partially b/c some of the groups we're affiliated with have strict shelter/breeding guidelines.

That said, just because we don't provide adoptions for breeding doesn't mean we won't provide adoptions for breeders. The fact is that successful breeders generally have a great understanding of proper care for their reptiles - if they didn't know what they were doing they'd be unlikely to hatch anything. So our rescue doesn't mind working with responsible reptile keepers who do some breeding . . . as long as they have the understanding that they may not breed the herps they adopt from us.

Anyone else want to tackle this question? I think there are probably some great viewpoints on the subject.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

You're assuming that the rescuers aren't breeders of something themselves, aren't you?

I was just thinking that some breeders of dogs are also part of breed rescue groups. It sort of makes sense, since they would know the breed inside and out if they are responsible breeders, and would be better able to find a qualified home than a regular shelter would. Many responsible dog breeders feel that they have to help with breed rescue in order to BE responsible breeders.

Katrina

in my opinion you shoudl not limit someone... if i adopt a snake from you how are you planning of stopping me from breeding it??? i could come in their saying everything you want me to say and argeeing with everything you have to say... but once i get that snake home.. .how do you plan on making sure i dont breed it???

shiloh

Of course she was, but I was just pointing out that breeders and rescues are not always seperate. The most common example that came to mind were dog breeders, but it could just as easily be reptile breeders as well.

Some rescues have a "do not breed" clause to their adoption contract.

Katrina

if i adopt a snake from you how are you planning of stopping me from breeding it??? i could come in their saying everything you want me to say and argeeing with everything you have to say... but once i get that snake home.. .how do you plan on making sure i dont breed it???

The same way we would make sure you're not abusing your animal. Like many rescues, we reserve the right to make follow-up visits and if things are not in order we reserve the right to reclaim the animal. We also require references for adoptions, as well as adoption fees. Even to dishonest people it's usually not worth it to lie their whole way through the process and shell out the adoptoin fee when they could just pay a breeder for the same animal without any hassles.

And there are many reasons why we don't allow adoptions for breeding. The two main reasons being:

1. Conflict of interest. If someone is not planning to breed a reptile, usually they just want it for a pet. If they want to breed it, caring for a pet may not be their intent at all.

2. We are trying to slow down the problem, not speed it up. When it comes to overly common, overly abundant herps like iguanas, etc there are already too many out there that nobody wants. Breeding more only adds to the problem that we're trying to solve.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against breeding any reptiles. I love the reptile hobby as much as the next guy and I know we're better of breeding herps in captivity rather than yanking them out of the wild. But as a rescue it's not our place to provide adoptions for breeding.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

not trying to start an argument so please dont take anything i say the wrong way...

how is it that you plan on entering the home of a person that adopted an animal??? its private property...
also how would you even know if the person was breeding a reptile??? in the case of a python the eggs are taken to an encubator and in the case of a boa they have live birth...

they also have in the adoption paperwork that: I /we agree not to give, sell, loan or trade the animal to any other person, business or entity.
but yet you are not required to tell them if the animal dies... so if you sell it then you could just say it died and they would never know different...

seems to me that their are way too many holes in the contract of adopting a pet for the adoption agency to do anything if you violated the contract...

shiloh

Just wanted to say a few things here not trying to bash anyone.

how is it that you plan on entering the home of a person that adopted an animal??? its private property...
We have only been denied access to a home once, then we came back with the cops and the people didn't argue.

also how would you even know if the person was breeding a reptile???
In this circumstance you don't find out until the babies are born/hatched then it's normally easy to find out through classifieds, reptileauction.com, etc.

they also have in the adoption paperwork that: I /we agree not to give, sell, loan or trade the animal to any other person, business or entity. but yet you are not required to tell them if the animal dies...
Thank you for pointing that out, i think i'll go revise our adoption contract.

seems to me that their are way too many holes in the contract of adopting a pet for the adoption agency to do anything if you violated the contract...
You'd be surprised, the contrat we use has held up in court numerous times.

Vanessa
HerpHaven Reptile Rescue

how would you know if the babies being sold are from the adopted snake or reptile??? breeders are not restricted from adopting these animals... in fact thats not even a question on the contract... it would probably help if you asked the person if they had ever breed before...
also as far as entering the home of the adopted animal... i talked to my local law enforcement and they said that they cant force a visit... all they will do is ask the new owner if the people can come in and check up on the animal, but if the new owner said no then they would not be allowed in...
i'm not trying to buck the system... i am just curous about the way the adoption agency;s handle business...
also if you could please elaborate of taking an owner to court... what situation would cause that???

shiloh

how would you know if the babies being sold are from the adopted snake or reptile??? breeders are not restricted from adopting these animals... in fact thats not even a question on the contract... it would probably help if you asked the person if they had ever breed before...
The only way to know is if they admit it or if that is the only female of that particular species they own. We do ask if they have bred an animal before or if they intend to breed the one they adopt from us. We only have a strict no breeding clause on Iguana's so this has never been an issue for us.

also as far as entering the home of the adopted animal... i talked to my local law enforcement and they said that they cant force a visit... all they will do is ask the new owner if the people can come in and check up on the animal, but if the new owner said no then they would not be allowed in...
Your absolutly right cops cannot force the issue of allowing us in, but people tend to freak out when they see cops and do what they ask.

i'm not trying to buck the system... i am just curous about the way the adoption agency;s handle business...
also if you could please elaborate of taking an owner to court... what situation would cause that???
As for taking them to court there can be many reason. Improper care of the animal and refusing to change anything, and attempting to sell the animal are the main things.

thanks for helping me understand a little bit better...

i was under the impression that all adopded animals cant be breed... i think i read one adoption contract where they said that... i can understand about iguanas...

thanks again for the conversation...

shiloh

Yes, I've always been concerned that a rescue might find an endangered or threatened species in their hands, or some other species with a very small captive gene pool that won't be added to again...it would be a shame to remove the option to breed such an animal simply because its previous owner had to surrender it suddenly.

I do think MOST rescues are more concerned with doing the right thing, whatever that might be in the circumstance. And certainly there is no cause to breed green iguanas.

I know alot of other reptile rescue probably disagree with us whaen it comes to breeding. We do not put a breeding clause in our contract unless there is one of the folowing concerns. The animal has medical problems, there are government regulations surrounding keeping/breeding the animal, or if its an iguana. We figure if we put a no breeding clause on all our rescue's then most of them will probably never be adopted. Alot of people who get reptiles especially snakes have the intention of breeding them one day.

i can totally understand that if an animal had a medical issue you wouldent want it breed... thats just the humane thing to do...
i have been an animal lover since i was a small child... animals are really amazing... someone adopting an animal that has been rescued should not abuse that priveledge... you guys give people the oppertunity to give good animals the home they deserve...
my post's were not to make your contract sound unfair... i was just simply trying to understand it and point out a few things that i thought needed addressing... i am never read a contract that says the new owner needs to contact the rescue at the time of the animals death... maybe that shoudl say something like contact us in the event of the animal dieing within 2 years... but i am not am expert... me personally i have had lots of animals, but i have had few ever die... but if they did they eighter ended up in the back yard or down the toilet...

shiloh

I put a "no breeding" clause for sliders and sulcata, or for an animal that came from a shelter that requests a no breeding clause. We also state that the animal will be kept in accordance with state and local laws.

Katrina

Jesse,

My answer is yes and no. It really depends on the animal, the species, the person, and the situation.

In the last 7 years of doing rescue, I've tried to make good contacts from all aspects of herping, breeders included. I've adopted many animals to breeders, knowing that they would be bred. However, my adoptions to breeders are becoming less and less frequent, as I find that many of the species I formerly didn't see often are now my most common species (common BCI, for instance.) Regardless, keeping a friendly relationship with breeders can help me in placing a difficult animal, or finding contacts for other reasons.

Now to answer some other questions posted:

How do I know you're not going to breed? I don't. It's a matter of trust and integrity. That's why I don't approve 95% of the adoption applications I get. If there's ANY inkling that I can't trust you, I don't adopt to you. I had one jerk last year that adopted a burm from me - and I made a big deal out of making sure he knew not to breed (he was a breeder). Turns out, the burm was gravid before she left here (I didn't know that) and he called a few months later to basically sneer at me and let me know that he'd hatched 36 burm eggs and sold them all. (In violation of the contract, I might add.) That was one case where I didn't follow my instincts, and I got burned. It won't happen again.

How do I know you didn't sell the animal? I don't. It goes back to trust again. My contract does stipulate that if the animal dies, I'm to be notified. I have yet to have it happen, though I'm certain there are animals that have passed.

How do I follow up on adoptions? E-mail, phone, checking with local rescuers to do a follow-up visit, etc.

Are the contracts enforceable? Yes. If you have the time and money. I've only had to do it once, but I'd do it again if I needed to. The courts are fairly clear on these contracts (which is why mine is so lengthy - it spells out pretty much everything). Again, though, I'm relying on trust - and my firm belief that most people will do the right thing. Naive? No - probably just over-optimistic.

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Bonnie Keller
VA Reptile Rescue
www.vareptilerescue.org

if you adopded out a snake that was already gravid their is no violation of the contract if he sells the offspring... thats a pretty big loop hole and i guarantee that if you pressed that issue you would have lost in court...

speaking from personal experience...

shiloh

But wouldn't he have to incubate the eggs to get offspring? Eggs can be frozen as soon as they are laid.

Katrina

That's true...and a pregnant cat can be spayed, but that's a very grey area, ethically speaking. You can't really ask someone to kill something that's alive, and fertile eggs are alive. They need moisture and proper temperatures, just as adult reptiles do. I'm not sure that failing to provide that is any better than doing the same with a hatchling or adult.
Euthanasia of a healthy animal is generally performed to prevent suffering--homeless animals don't have the proper amount of space or care they require. But when you have people lining up to actually buy the babies, how can you justify killing living eggs?
Not breeding the animal in the first place is what should have been done, but if it was already gravid when received, then the letter of the contract WAS upheld, in my opinion. If you got a pregnant cat from a shelter, they certainly wouldn't expect you to kill the kittens--or even to have it spayed before it gave birth. (Of course, shelters usually hold onto gravid animals until they give birth and wean their offspring, before offering them for adoption).

i cant believe you actually said that katrina...

whats the point of a rescue if your going to just kill the animals anyway...

my jaw dropped when i read that... i'm still shaking my head...

shiloh

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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

We're talking about freshly laid EGGS. Nothing in the egg is going to feel anything at that time. Reptile rescues across the country are having to decline Burmese left and right because they can't find enough homes for all of the surrendered ones. They sell cheap when small and get big fast - it's pretty uncommon for a SMALL Burmese to show up in rescue. The average person can't - or isn't willing - to keep one for the life span of a Burmese. Are you prepared to find homes for 36 adult Burmese pythons? When your rescue is so full that you can't take in another animal, would you then consider euthanizing an adult Burm (that the current owner is keeping in bad conditions) because you just don't have space for one more animal?

Yes, there were buyers for those 36, but where or how do you think they are living ten years from now? I can't even think of 36 people in my area, which is pretty thick with hobbyists, herpetoculturists and experienced zoo keepers, who would be willing and able to care for an adult Burmese.

Katrina

i started in herps as a breeder, and as the need for more of them to be rescued grew thats where i went, i have not made my rescue into an offical thing, for lack of know how (biz side, not herp care) and im assuming id need a bit of $$ too!
i have a few of my very special "babies" that i love to breed not for $ but for the love of well breed good blood line herps, any $ i have made from the sale of ofspring is right back into the herps that i have taken in that need all the TLC in the world. i am also working on upping my mealworm breeding to be able to sell them just to have more to spend on the rescues and the ones i will breed.
would i adopt a herp to somene who would breed it? maybe, depends on why they want to do it, for the love of herps and they are responsible, sure, just to be a hot shot, or to make $ H*LL NO!