Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some questions about the Limburg amels and anerys...

I cannot seem to get straight locality information on these animals to save my life. Since Limburg is not actually a place, but a person, I think it is very easy to get confused and over look the actual locality. I have heard Temecula, Winchester, and Hemet all cited as the locality for these Boas. It cannot be all of them now can it? It is my understanding that the original Coastal Amel was discovered in Near Vail Lake. Ok, if that is the case, then was it just bred to animals from the surrounding areas like Hemet and Temecula? It is my understanding that it has. If this is true then how can it be called a local pure animal (especially when we are splitting hairs over in Whitewater with Morongo and Verbenia)? Vail lake is 15 miles from Hemet, and 10 miles from Temecula, and Temecula is 20 miles from Hemet, and that is all supposed to be one local? Yet the Verbenia exit is 1 mile from the Whitewater exit, and they boarder each other with no natural or artificial barrier, and the same is true with Morongo, which sits right at Whitewater's northern edge. So how is it that the coastal albinos are considered local if their local seems to keep changing? It seems to me that they are a taxonomically pure coastal amel Rosy Boa, but not local.

Now can anyone actually tell me where the original Limburg anery was found? I have been told Temecula, but according to ads that I am seeing it is from Hemet, but then the ad says that the Limburg amels are from Hemet as well. Isn't that just a little too convenient? Why can't we ever get a straight answer about the localities on these animals? Something has to give. It seems to me that the facts seem to keep changing in order to please popular opinion. In addition, how are the double hets from these animals supposed to be pure local if it keeps changing? And how are they any more local pure than the Snows that were created by breeding the Morongo anery into the Whitewater amel when Whitewater and Morongo are connected and have no natural barriers? I have seen posters chastise the breeders of the Morongo/Whitewater Snows, while bowing down to others that seem to give locality information that is vague at best and that also seems to change whenever it is convenient. It makes no sense to me at all. What is even funnier is that people are concerned about local and are willing to streach the truth about local in regard to a designer snake in which the goal is to remove all color and pattern in the first place. What exactly is the point with that?
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

To me, Hemet, Temecula, Winchester.. close enough to be called locality for a morph. Just an opinion. I haven't a clue where they came from. But I have more opinions. Don't we all?

The albino gene is out there somewhere in Temecula, Hemet or thereabouts. But nature, at this point anyway, has not allowed for that gene to be common. Most animals found are not amels. Fact. Same goes with anery. Most animals found in those areas aren't. With anery, I can see how the snake can still blend in with its environs, so maybe there will be more of those? I digress.

Point is, when folks start breeding amels and anerys in captivity, and then make snows, etc, it is not likely what natural selection would do. So locality becomes more of a label for the origins of the animals, but the new snows and whatnot will not be characteristic of what Temecula, Hemet, etc has in the wild, at least not what is the common snake one would find.

I just don't see how locality matters for morphs other than for people to know where the animals came from. Those animals in captivity though aren't what's in the wild as nature selected to be the dominate color of the natural populations, so they are simply captive representations of what we wish we could find out there, or maybe even representations of a fluke of nature.

They are coastal rosies. Big. Different from those found in deserts. They live in sweater boxes or glass tanks. And they eat white mice originating from Sweden or somewhere other than Temecula. The parentage stock originated from the rosy-friendly habitat in the vicinity of Vail Lake, CA and somewhere else near there.

I agree with you.
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

Yet the Verbenia exit is 1 mile from the Whitewater exit

Actually the Whitewater exit is 2.4 miles from the Verbenia exit, but that's splitting hairs. The base of Whitewater Canyon is not much more than a mile though. I haven't been keeping numbers of Rosys that long but I will be breeding my wild caught "Verbenias" with my "Whitewaters" w/o a second thought next year. I am not going to get too anal about it, if someone feels that I am mixing localities and my snakes aren't pure, well that's fine too. The customer/buyer is allowed to be as picky as they want to be.

All three of these snakes come from within a 5 mile radius so there is quite a bit more variation among the Whitewater/Verbenias it seems like versus the Hemet/Temecula area. Sorry to get off topic but sometimes I look for any excuse to post pics of my Rosys.

"All three of these snakes come from within a 5 mile radius so there is quite a bit more variation among the Whitewater/Verbenias it seems like versus the Hemet/Temecula area."

The fact that Whitewater/Verbenia is located in the intergrade zone between the Desert Rosy Boa (L. t. gracia) and the Coastal Rosy Boa (L. t. roseofusca) basically accounts for the variation within those "locals". and that is a whole other debate. I still cannot figure out why we even have "locals" in an intergrade zone in the first place (Especially when these "locals" but up against each other with no barriers there to seperate them from each other).
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

I still cannot figure out why we even have "locals" in an intergrade zone in the first place

Well the Whitewater "locality" obviously has become very popular, as I am sure you would agree, because the first albino caught came from there and ppl wanted to keep the line as pure as possible even it was in an intergrade zone.

That is my point. It is an intergrade, there is nothing pure about it... Well, that's how I see it anyway. BTW, Nice Rosy Boas. I Like the diversity that the Whitewater area offers.
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

You are right, "pure" was a poor choice of words. What I mean is as a line as genetically close to the albino as possible. When given a choice in which Rosy Boas breeders want to use to carry on the line of an albino that was found in Whitewater, I imagine using Rosy Boas from the exact same area was and is pretty obvious. You got an albino from an intergrade zone, nothing you can do about that, might as keep breeding it with other intergrades from the same area. With the popularity and availability of the Limburgs, which appears to be a much more focused strain, I wonder if the Whitewater albinos will eventually fade away.

Thanks for the compliments on my Rosys.

The rosies there breed and live all the way from the mountain foothills to the desert and everywhere inbetween. That part is true. The rosies make no attempt to differentiate themselves as gracia and rosefusca. They just live. The lighter ones tend to survive moreso in the desert areas (yes there are exceptions in any population) and the darker ones tend to survive more in the upper zones. They are pure. Pure rosies from that area. They just don't fit exactly in the human-generated classifications of gracia and rosefusca. They are still very valid animals from a very interesting area that in time may be cleared for homes for the masses of invading humans.

You make very good points and I agree with them. My point is a Whitewater X Verbenia is not any less pure than a Whitewater X Whitewater, as the two locals butt up to each other and there is no barrier to seperate them. The boas overflow from one area right into the other and then on into the other in that whole intergrade area. If you can't draw the line somewhere, then how do you define that local? In addition, it is my opinion that the same Whitewater X Verbenia boa certianly is no less pure (in regard to locality) than a Hemet x Temecula Boa either. Does that make any sense?
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

>>You make very good points and I agree with them. My point is a Whitewater X Verbenia is not any less pure than a Whitewater X Whitewater, as the two locals butt up to each other and there is no barrier to seperate them. The boas overflow from one area right into the other and then on into the other in that whole intergrade area. If you can't draw the line somewhere, then how do you define that local? In addition, it is my opinion that the same Whitewater X Verbenia boa certianly is no less pure (in regard to locality) than a Hemet x Temecula Boa either. Does that make any sense?
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>>James Wilson
>>Pacific Coast Herpetological
>>www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

James, I'm with ya bruddah!

Limburgs are not locality pure using a traditional definition of "same deme" though some will rest easier at night believing so. They were outbred with Winchester boas, quite a distance from Vail Lake and the normal look is somewhat different as well, and they are separate demes. Hemet boas from west of Hemet and Winchester boas are within a few miles of each other and very similar. Someone showed me a het for albino Limburg the other day that looks nothing like the stated locale. The pedigree of the Limburg anery may only truthyfully be told by Randy himself (remember when he first called his albino a Lake Elsinore boa?)

Larry
American Desert Boas
American Desert Boas

"(remember when he first called his albino a Lake Elsinore boa?)"

Yes I do, hence my asking why it is so darn hard to get a straight answer. I am convinced that there are certain people that are twisting/stretching/changing the facts just to fit the rules that they have been preaching for so long.
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

I like the Coastal Albinos, but that is all they are to me--Coastal albinos-- and they are awesome animals just as that. I just think it is pretty darn funny when people have to misrepresent an animal (or line) as more "local pure" than it actually is, in an effort to appeal to the masses.
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

Here is my take on this whole thing. I have hunted rosies in the integrade zone (i.e in order headed east on I-10 Morongo, Verbinia, And whitwater. It is a mountain range that has good rosy habitat on it and the boas are probably throughout most of that entire area. The only reason you have diffrent locals in some minds is that you just caught a rosy on one road and not the other. What if you got out of your car and walked around a mile between verbinia and whitwater what would you call that snake it was not on either road maybe no road boa. There is no natural barrier between the 3 rosies and taxonomiclly the are all natural integrades and in siences eye the same snake. I was also under the impression that the first albino Whitewater was caught by the green water tower at the end of the road in verbinia? Sorry for the rant.

Thanks Ryan Young

I do not want to give the wrong impression here either. I am all for the locality effort, and I think guys like Jerry are doing an awesome with it. However, if an area or "local" does not produce boas with some sort of consistancy to their color and pattern, or if it is not geographicly isolated, then it is in my opinion not an actual definable local, and names like Whitewater, Verbenia, and Morongo are just names not locals.
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James Wilson
Pacific Coast Herpetological
www.pacificcoastherpetological.com

...if I caught a rosy on Whitewater Canyon road, whether it's light, dark, has smooth stripes or more irregular, it's still locale-specific. That's one of the reasons rosys are such fascinating snakes - individuals from one locale may all be quite similar to one another (some of the Mexican Trivs come to mind), or there may be lots of variation in the immediate geographical area. The locales that have that most variable animals can be the most interesting - it's a thrill to find or see something unexpected from a locale you thought you knew well.