Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The reason you are all seeing TONS of baby Russians is because a VERY smart importer oxytocin'd ALL the import females and dropped eggs. He then incubated the eggs and not only sold the adults, but the babies as well. Not only was that a very smart call on his part to make more money, but also created many nice captive hatched baby Russians to become available to hobbyists.

Barry

"The reason you are all seeing TONS of baby Russians is because a VERY smart importer oxytocin'd ALL the import females and dropped eggs. He then incubated the eggs and not only sold the adults, but the babies as well. Not only was that a very smart call on his part to make more money, but also created many nice captive hatched baby Russians to become available to hobbyists."

hi barry,

i'm impressed that so many females were received by the importer with fully shelled eggs in utero. interesting. where did you get this information?

if this is true, then all the more reason to buy from a breeder. it's the best way to ensure continuous careful diet and husbandry.

matt

Matt,

My partner and I know quite a few importers and their friends and that information came to us. If you think about it, how could there be soo many babies at once? There are people producing them, but not in those numbers. They were all over wholesalers lists. The smart thing the importer did was know that it was the right season or he must have had import adult females dropping eggs and knew to do it. From what I heard, he even weighed each one and administered the correct dosage for each female. That was pretty savy of him because if you also think about it, what if he didn't do that? Then you'd have a bunch of wild caughts dropping eggs at little Jimmy's house and 99% of them would go bad. My partner bought some of the babies you see on the net, and they are flawless, healthy, beautiful little babies. Every bit as nice as if you bred the adults and hatched them yourself.......

Barry

This doesn't really make sense to me because I don't think I've ever seen an adult russian offered for sale anywhere anytime.

My guess would be that the Russians that have been coming in for the last few years are coming of age and are starting to reproduce.

>>The reason you are all seeing TONS of baby Russians is because a VERY smart importer oxytocin'd ALL the import females and dropped eggs. He then incubated the eggs and not only sold the adults, but the babies as well. Not only was that a very smart call on his part to make more money, but also created many nice captive hatched baby Russians to become available to hobbyists.
>>
>>Barry
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi Ed,

I'm a bit confused. You said that you haven't seen an adult Russian offered for sale anywhere, anytime? They are all over the net Ed....

Well, here is the problem with that theory. All these adult Russians your referring to were sold into the pet trade and very typically go to the little Johnny's and little Jimmy's of the pet trade. I don't see how someone could have round up all the babies at the same time from all these private breeders and then sold them to wholesalers only to be put back into the pet trade. As you know, Russians have small clutches and how there could be a bunch of babies at the same time from that many private breeders doesn't make sense. As you can see from the ads, it is mainly retailers that are selling the babies. VERY few private parties selling their own babies. There are just way too many available for it to be private breeders selling their offspring to wholesalers. They are on wholesalers lists for $59.00ea. That would mean that all these private breeders are selling their precious babies that they worked hard to produce for $35-$40.00ea? I don't think so......See my ponit?

Barry

What you see all over are no where near adults. I've yet to see one of that size produce an egg or talk to someone who has one of that size that has produced a viable egg.

There are many tortoise keepers who have absolutely no interest in the commercial aspect of the trade who are more than willing to sell off the animals they produce for amazingly (to you or I) low prices.

Also, there may be some 'farms' popping up in the countries of origin.

>>Hi Ed,
>>
>>I'm a bit confused. You said that you haven't seen an adult Russian offered for sale anywhere, anytime? They are all over the net Ed....
>>
>>Well, here is the problem with that theory. All these adult Russians your referring to were sold into the pet trade and very typically go to the little Johnny's and little Jimmy's of the pet trade. I don't see how someone could have round up all the babies at the same time from all these private breeders and then sold them to wholesalers only to be put back into the pet trade. As you know, Russians have small clutches and how there could be a bunch of babies at the same time from that many private breeders doesn't make sense. As you can see from the ads, it is mainly retailers that are selling the babies. VERY few private parties selling their own babies. There are just way too many available for it to be private breeders selling their offspring to wholesalers. They are on wholesalers lists for $59.00ea. That would mean that all these private breeders are selling their precious babies that they worked hard to produce for $35-$40.00ea? I don't think so......See my ponit?
>>
>>Barry
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

This guy is right. None of the females for sale these days approach even six inches. Russians aren't a new thing in the trade. They've been THE wild-caught tortoise for over six years now. I got my first one from an overcrowded petstore tank seven years ago. I can only imagine the number of animals that have been sold to be somewhere in the thousands. Even if only one petstore per city sold ten per year, that is still sixty tortoises over six years, and we all know the numbers to be much greater than that (San Antonio, for example, has six petstores that sell Russian tortoises regularly; I see some of them turn over a tank of six to nine every month or so in spring and summer). Even if only five percent of these animals survived with breeders, it would be enough to generate the animals I've seen listed in classifieds.

As for the hatchlings showing up on wholesalers' lists, I don't know any wholesalers, so I couldn't speak intelligently about what they're up to. However, international tortoise farms don't seem too far fetched and are, for me, the next most likely explanation. All I can say is that people have been farming Iguanas in Central America for years now and have made quite a lucrative trade in these animals. Russians are fairly easy to breed. All you need is some nice dry weather with seasonal variation, two or three tortoises of appropriate size, and an incubator. Sure, clutch sizes are small, but I'm sure if you had a few acres and a few dozen tortoises, it could be done. I heard of something like this happening with Hermanns tortoises a year back. Some folks were offering "farm-raised" Hermanns for extremely low prices.

Anyone have any experience with these new youngsters? Anyone have any experience with "farm-raised" animals?

Let's keep in mind that there is no legal importation of chelonians under 4". Correct? Not correct? I'm not versed on the Lacey Act, but I think it falls under that law. I had received first hand information regarding all the baby Russians, and figured I would receive some different opinions on it......Oh Well........

Barry

There does not seem to be any information out there to ligitimately support the idea of "farming" Russian tortoises. The source countries for the trade animals coming in issue irresponsibly high export quotas each year. Since so many collectors within the species' exporting (laundering?) range can make a practice of collecting them (on behalf of those high quotas), why would they bother to attempt farming an already cheap, territorial, low-clutching species in a nutrient-deficcient (i.e., little green food-producing) environ?

I know of two tort farming examples other than the Hermanns already given (which I was not familiar with). Those redfoots from the Tortoise Reserve (I think that's the right organization) coming out of Venezuela (or Suriname or wherever) at four inches (very nice specimens) and Fluker Farms' leopard tortoises bred alongside the iguanas down in El Salvador. After importation of hearwater tick-carrying animals was federally prohibited, Fluker's owner had a ton of captive-bred pardalis inventory trapped down in El Salvador that could not be accessed for the intended commercial purposes (being sent up to the states for sale). I don't know what became of that situation, but, it does show how fluxy any international farming op can be.

True. Farming is usually done with higher clutching animals. I find it strange that sulcattas aren't bred in such a fashion in Africa, though I've heard the animal is facing great decline in the wild. With regard to the Russians, I suppose some wholesalers could be inducing laying among their new arrivals. However, I can't see this happening on such a massive scale. Also, many of the animals coming in recently are tiny. I've never seen a Russian lay eggs, induced or otherwise, that wasn't at least eighteen centimeters.

Barry, If you've actually seen the practice please fill in the blanks as to the minimum size a Russian will lay eggs. I'd really be interested.

The lacey act covers moving protected species across state lines and comes from USFW. The 4 inch law comes from the USDA.

The information you offer is interesting but doesn't really make sense.

>>Let's keep in mind that there is no legal importation of chelonians under 4". Correct? Not correct? I'm not versed on the Lacey Act, but I think it falls under that law. I had received first hand information regarding all the baby Russians, and figured I would receive some different opinions on it......Oh Well........
>>
>>Barry
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You're not suggesting that ALL of the baby Russians available this summer are the results of one guy's actions? What about all of those folks who've been keeping Russians for years?

EJ, check Kingsnake classifieds to find adult Russians for sale.
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David, I thought you hatched out some Russians... Were the parents under 7 or 8 inches? That would be interesting to me. Every breeder that I have notes on has told me the smallest female that has produced eggs for them is 7 to 8 inches. I've never seen a WC animal offered that was much over 5 inches. I can honestly say I've seen thousands over the years. All of them under 6 inches and not much over 5.

All those offered on KS are in that size range.

Now another thought comes to mind. These exporters have been letting this size out for years... Where ARE the adults. Barry could be partially right in that the exporters are holding back the adults and harvesting the eggs or they have the adults penned and are harvesting the babies.

If that is the case, how are they comming into the country under the 4 inch rule.

I still believe that there are finally some tortoise breeders that are producing them in numbers from animals that that were imported earlier.

>>You're not suggesting that ALL of the baby Russians available this summer are the results of one guy's actions? What about all of those folks who've been keeping Russians for years?
>>
>>EJ, check Kingsnake classifieds to find adult Russians for sale.
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>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I've got 3 CB Russians: a 4 year old male, a yearling & a hatchling. It'll be quite a while before I get any babies.
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I know there's someone on this list that has recently hatched Russians and I'm sure they can confirm what I'm saying in that adult Russians are much larger that what is commonly advertised.

>>I've got 3 CB Russians: a 4 year old male, a yearling & a hatchling. It'll be quite a while before I get any babies.
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>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

My russian females produced eggs at about 6" and 1000 grams.

My largest female is now 7". My other has been at about 6.25" for a few years now.

It seems there are larger and smaller varieties (subspecies?). Or at least the ones I've seen in the pet trade fall into two categories:

1) Large (males over 5", females over 6" ) with a light-yellowish background and a more domed carapace (what I have now)

2) Smaller, flatter, darker. I've only seen males and they seem to be around 4.5".

I can't claim much experience with the pet trade. Two of my three adults are adoptees. I'm fortunate in that they all appear to be of the same type. My 4th almost-adult is the offspring of the adoptees, and he is close to 5" at 3.5 years of age.

Here's the guy I was looking for...

I don't agree with the different forms just yet. I know in the case of leopards there is a minimum size at wich the females produce and there is a drastic diference between the minimum size and the maximum size.

Has the 6.25" animal laid viable eggs?

>>My russian females produced eggs at about 6" and 1000 grams.
>>
>>My largest female is now 7". My other has been at about 6.25" for a few years now.
>>
>>It seems there are larger and smaller varieties (subspecies?). Or at least the ones I've seen in the pet trade fall into two categories:
>>
>>1) Large (males over 5", females over 6" ) with a light-yellowish background and a more domed carapace (what I have now)
>>
>>2) Smaller, flatter, darker. I've only seen males and they seem to be around 4.5".
>>
>>I can't claim much experience with the pet trade. Two of my three adults are adoptees. I'm fortunate in that they all appear to be of the same type. My 4th almost-adult is the offspring of the adoptees, and he is close to 5" at 3.5 years of age.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I lost my records due to computer failure, so I'm winging it here.

The 6.25" female was an adoptee, along with a 5.25" male. I think she produced eggs for a year or two before yielding one hatchling out of maybe 8 eggs. She's produced several more hatchlings (maybe 8-10) over the last two years.

The currently 7" female was purchased at a reptile specialty store about 7 years ago. She was 4". When she reached 6" she produced several infertile eggs. The next year (around maybe 6.5" she produced a couple hatchling out of maybe 7 eggs. This year I let someone else do the incubating so I don't know who produced what, but I'd guess she had some more hatchlings.

During this time I've been relying on one very aggressive male to father all of the hatchlings. He may very well be the source of the fertility problem. There will be another male next year.

Ed,

Brad has kept what appears to be good records on his Russians. I can only "assume" he's doing his best to breed them and according to his results, they are still fairly problematic. Infertile, couple babies out of a clutch, only a few every few years, etc......There was just way too many baby Russians for it to be anything else other that what I was told. For all these babies to show up at the same time like they did means that all these "breeders" would have to have been on the same page with selling their offspring.

To answer Davids question....Why would it seem soo unrealistic for an importer to know that his hundreds of female Russians are holding eggs? He probably saw some eggs in with the shipment, and figured it was the season and took a chance to oxytocin all of them. Heck, if he's got a good relationship with the exporter, maybe the exporter (who probably knows the breeding season of Russians well) advised him to oxytocin them. Not really that far-fetched.......

Barry

Are these six inch egg producers flukes, or are they the regular thing, because I've never seen an animal under seven inches produce viable eggs.

Also, I've not experienced the problems with widespread infertility. My colony of two males and five females produces five to fifteen hatchlings every year. However, many of my newer colonies have no success whatsoever(infertile eggs, overly agressive males, exceedingly resistant females, animals completely intollerant of humidity, etc). My argument would be that regional forms exist and that compatibility is of the utmost importance, much as it is in Leopard Tortoise breeding.

All I can say is that my two females have produced viable eggs while measuring 6.25 to about 6.75 inches.

The inconsistent fertility may be due to my having only one male. A second male next year may improve things.

Or maybe I'm not doing something right.

I always assumed that the sudden appearance of more baby russians was due to more people like me having some luck. There must be actual proof of this injection hypothesis, other than saying "it makes sense", right?

"I always assumed that the sudden appearance of more baby russians was due to more people like me having some luck. There must be actual proof of this injection hypothesis, other than saying "it makes sense", right?"

brad -- i couldn't agree more! we can round and round adding more and more notions to this series of guesses.

i've been producing 11-20 hatchlings each year for eight years. last year there were maybe 6-7 of us offering babies on KS.com. that number has jumped this year (i'm offering 16 currently), but so have the number of people on RT.org that have successfully hatched eggs this year. it went from three breeders last year to over a dozen this year.

unless someone (e.g. mr. importer-OXY-injector) is hoarding all the large reproductive females, then i doubt that the little girls i see in petco are able to produce these sudden hatchlings.

i would like to hear from the person who actually did the injections before this idea becomes another addition to the enormous amount of lore being created on a daily basis.

matt

All the major importers are oxyting their females.That is why there is huge amounts all at once.They are savy bussnessmen and know their herpetology and when to get what from who and when.They have done it with ball pythons, boas,cham.crocks,lizards you name it, for years,It took one brave imported to figger out what the "pet of the day"would be, roll the dice on a huge shippment,successfully hatch them out and blow the established price of other importers and privet breeders all over the country.Now they will all do it untill the next "pet of the day" comes along.Next year there will be 10 times as many for about $20 Maybe Barry should oxy his new phayrei,or maybe he should not!! never mind Barry forget it. Vic Morgan

Thanks Vic! I guess a few folks on here thought I was losing my marbles....ha ha....I don't know about oxytocin my phayrei, but I do need to do something.....The Luther Vandross got them to breed, now I just need to get them to produce viable eggs and nest properly....

Barry