Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just to follow up on what I was told and my partner was told when he bought a boatload of these babies in Daytona was that the ex owner of Burgundy Reptiles had got in these 5-6" Russians and oxytocin'd all the females. He said there were literally hundreds of these babies available at the Daytona show. Some had laid, some hadn't. As for this minimum size rule, my partner had informed me (since he's more knowledgeable than me) and owns Russians and bred Russians, that he's unpacked imported Russian torts in the past only to sometimes see 3 eggs in with a female. Russian are packed in their own individual cubical for those of you who don't know. All of these females were in the 5-6" range. Does this mean that a 5-6" female won't lay viable eggs? I'm not an expert on Russians, but I'd like to see some proof other than some field notes that say otherwise.

I'm still sticking to the idea that this whole issue on the baby Russian explosion has to be true, and not just because my partner was told this first hand from a wholesaler who purchased babies directly from the gentleman who performed this. I'll still also have to disagree with Ed that noway would folks like us on this forum sell hundreds of babies (at the same time of year, this year) to wholesalers for less than $50.00ea. Whoever could have orchestrated such a thing should be the next Pres.of the U.S. They were selling just fine for $150.00 each already til this happened! The CH babies had alot going for them til this explosion happened.

I'm not saying I'm right, but I'd love to see proof otherwise. I'm always willing to give credit where credit is due........I do appreciate all the ideas and input. No matter what the gospel truth is on this issue, it is interesting either way....

Thanks,
Barry

P.S. I'll stick with my more problematic phayrei thank you...he he..

With the info you provided, I doubt even more that these hatchlings have been produced as you say but that is my opinion... nothing more.

You keyed onto one major point... folks like us. The people I'm talking about are backyard breeders who want nothing to do with 'folks like us'. I'll be willing to bet your partner knows locals of the type I'm talking about. They really don't care about the money and it would blow you away at the prices they sell their animals.

>>Just to follow up on what I was told and my partner was told when he bought a boatload of these babies in Daytona was that the ex owner of Burgundy Reptiles had got in these 5-6" Russians and oxytocin'd all the females. He said there were literally hundreds of these babies available at the Daytona show. Some had laid, some hadn't. As for this minimum size rule, my partner had informed me (since he's more knowledgeable than me) and owns Russians and bred Russians, that he's unpacked imported Russian torts in the past only to sometimes see 3 eggs in with a female. Russian are packed in their own individual cubical for those of you who don't know. All of these females were in the 5-6" range. Does this mean that a 5-6" female won't lay viable eggs? I'm not an expert on Russians, but I'd like to see some proof other than some field notes that say otherwise.
>>
>>I'm still sticking to the idea that this whole issue on the baby Russian explosion has to be true, and not just because my partner was told this first hand from a wholesaler who purchased babies directly from the gentleman who performed this. I'll still also have to disagree with Ed that noway would folks like us on this forum sell hundreds of babies (at the same time of year, this year) to wholesalers for less than $50.00ea. Whoever could have orchestrated such a thing should be the next Pres.of the U.S. They were selling just fine for $150.00 each already til this happened! The CH babies had alot going for them til this explosion happened.
>>
>>I'm not saying I'm right, but I'd love to see proof otherwise. I'm always willing to give credit where credit is due........I do appreciate all the ideas and input. No matter what the gospel truth is on this issue, it is interesting either way....
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Barry
>>
>>P.S. I'll stick with my more problematic phayrei thank you...he he..
>>
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Well, I guess that's where we differ because I don't see how there were that many Russian breeders who cranked out hundreds upon hundreds of babies and all of these babies fell into the hands of a few wholesalers. These were in record numbers like a sulcata epidemic. That one doesn't make any sense either. The only thing that MIGHT make sense is that if there was a person out there who nobody knows that has a HUGE colony of Russians that are all now cranking out babies by the hundreds, but even that is hard to believe.......Now, I'm driven enought to research this even more.........

B

That's not hard to believe at all. You know some local breeders who have the capability. Now consider that there are many breeders who have collections on that scale and consider there are many more who do not network. Consider those large scale breeder who have 'keyed' onto the breeding of these animals...

I'm not saying what you propose is not true. I'm saying I think it is unlikely for may reasons.

The other point is that you can't help but remember when baby Sulcatas were in the hundreds and the founding stock for those was way smaller than the Russians.

It is interesting.

>>Well, I guess that's where we differ because I don't see how there were that many Russian breeders who cranked out hundreds upon hundreds of babies and all of these babies fell into the hands of a few wholesalers. These were in record numbers like a sulcata epidemic. That one doesn't make any sense either. The only thing that MIGHT make sense is that if there was a person out there who nobody knows that has a HUGE colony of Russians that are all now cranking out babies by the hundreds, but even that is hard to believe.......Now, I'm driven enought to research this even more.........
>>
>>B
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

The hatchling & yearling Russians I have were gotten from 2 different backyard breaders whose long term captive adults have started producing offspring on a regular basis.
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This is the only point I was trying to make. You have to figure that as many as have been coming in for so long they have to start reproducing soon considering that from 4 to 5 inches to producing adults should take about 3 or 4 years in captivity. At least that is the rate I'm seeing with mine.

>>The hatchling & yearling Russians I have were gotten from 2 different backyard breaders whose long term captive adults have started producing offspring on a regular basis.
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>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=907863,911641

I can't seem to find anywhere where anyone has called you nuts.

I just said it was hard to believe.

Snakes and lizards is one thing... tortoises are another.

From a wholesalers stand point...

You have to first get breeder size females = prime dollars to collectors/breeders of the species.

Then you have to oxytocin those females = some will surely die from the stress = loss.

You have to be lucky enough to hit the right stage of egg development because you are surely not going to pay for xrays/sonograms.

You harvest the eggs... that you do get.

Incubate them after umteen days...

And you sell them for $30 to $40 each when you know the market can easily withstand twice that much.

call me skeptical.

But again, Barry, this is my opinion and nothing more.

>>http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=907863,911641
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

The way these baby russians got on the market all at once is from an importer knowing what time of year they come in with eggs and oxy-inj them.They have been doing it for over 25 years with lots of different turtles and tortoises.There is no SAGA its typical importer bussness operations.Low prices are also typical when dealing in huge numbers.Get them in and out as quickly as possable.There are not the number of privet breeders in the USA to do this,no were close to produce these numbers.I was at the Daytona Expo as a vender and it was comman knolage how the russian babies came to be.People sold hundreds to people who would resale to people who would sell them again.Russian tortoises are the pet of the day.If your a privet breeder this activity will ruin your day.Its not going to stop anytime soon.The Russian Government is not going to cave to C.I.T.I.E.S and the tortoises are common as dirt.The pet trade is only a fracktion of the exports,many,many maybe 90% more go to China for the food market.So hold on to the babies and breed them even though the price is low.I saw the Chinese Box turtle imported by the tens of thousands for 15years with no end in sight untill the Chinese market came into the picture,and the big red light like on a coke machine came on a few years ago that said SOLD OUT. Vic Morgan

Can you put me in touch with anyone who has purchased the adults that were sold after they dropped the eggs?
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Of coarse not!You must be very new to reptiles,Finish high school,read books,stop beating dead horses.Have your parents teach you logical positivism.Go away.Vic

"Of coarse not!You must be very new to reptiles,Finish high school,read books,stop beating dead horses.Have your parents teach you logical positivism.Go away.Vic"

this is exactly the kind of response that increases the membership turnover rate in a forum. people here are trying to gain access to informative help for their torts. Ed is only trying to establish the validity of a pretty incredible story. he asked a reasonable question and got an unwarranted flame. let's keep it civil.

matt