Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay. First off I am a freshman in the DF/W area in Texas planning to major in Herpetology and go into zoological husbandry of venomous snakes or private milking of venom for use in making antivenom.
Lately I have been tossing around the idea of doing educational programs on the native wildlife/herps and safety for my Elementary school. I have especially noticed a hatred for all snakes. Even harmless garter snakes and green snakes (called "Garden" snakes here) are slaughtered in the thinking they may be venomous. I hope to kill this habit at least in my neighborhood. I can easily come by most harmless herps from the area and easily keep them. My last real yearn is to show them what to look for in a venomous snake, and to respect them for the awesome creatures they are. This is where it starts to get interesting, in a way.
I have been thinking of buying a native species of venomoid. In my thinking (tell me I'm thinking wrong) keeping a venomoid snake could help improve the public's thinking on reptiles to thinking of what awesome animals they are and that they should always be treated with the upmost respect. I would really like to see a future generation of conservationists in my town of people who disregard wildlife completely. It would really be a life saver for not only the wildlife, but maybe in a rare case a child (though I somewhat doubt this). Anyway, down to my question. What kind of native snake do you think would be an appropriate venomoid for this endevour? Or even if this would be feasible? I have the appropriate skill for safely handling most snakes and have practiced for the past three years on water snakes and the occasional copperhead. I have been thinking the best candidate for this would be a medium WDB or a Agkistrodon c. c. Thanks for any input
Thekidgecko
P.S. This post isn't very detailed because I was three-quarters of the way through and I accidently pushed tab then backspace and I lost my whole post, so if there are any questionable points please ask before you flame because I'm tired and most likely forgot something. And thanks for not freaking at first by seeing venomous and elementary school near each other

Wow! I'll think you'll get tons of replies on this one.
But I'll try to head it off at the past.
I don't think there is any reason to "venomoid" a snake! Either native "or" exotic.

Whats your point? Is it for "your" own safety that a venomous snake is rendered "venomoid",(so you can handle it) or is it perhaps you don't want to learn how to safely "work" a venomous snake?
What about the snake? Does the snake have an option in this?
Or, do you want a "venomoid" because to live in an area that prohibits the possession of venomous snakes?
As far as educational aspects, (i.e. showing students what a venomous snake looks like) consider using graphics or a live (fully equipped) venomous snake in a locked cage!

It's wise to change your attitude about "venomoids" because people on this forum will torch you.

Educate yourself on venomous snakes and ask plenty of questions, then make an educated decision. As choosing a proffession, i.e. "milking" snakes for a living, I'd go the other route (zoo).

Randal

Removing venom glands from a snake is on par with having your salivary glands removed. How would you feel? Venom is nothing more than "glorified saliva" which aids the snake in the digestive process BEFORE the prey item is actually consumed. Have you ever taken a piece of pocorn and held it in your mouth without chewing it? If you haven't, your digestive enzymes (saliva) dissolves & breaks down the popcorn. Basically this is the same principal employed by venomous snakes. PLEASE don't contribute to this barbaric "medical prosedure". I suggest becoming adept at handling "hot" snakes & employ them into your presentation. If not, use photos. I think if live snakes were used in your presentation, it would serve for a more powerful & captivating presentation to your audience. You must convey to your audience that venomous snakes should be respected, but also illustrate that if given a wide berth, venomous snakes pose no real danger to human lives. I have had numerous venomous snakes over the years & what fasinates me the most about them is that they have this remarkable & efficient defense mechanism but when they feel they are not threatened, they are uninclined to use it. Please reconsider your idea about venomoids.

Typically I just sit back and observe this forum, but this discussion is just too disgusting to sit back and keep quiet.

"Removing venom glands from a snake is on par with having your salivary glands removed. How would you feel? Venom is nothing more than "glorified saliva" which aids the snake in the digestive process BEFORE the prey item is actually consumed."

While it is true that venom glands are modified salivary glands, they serve different functions in humans vs. reptiles. In humans, it is a means to lubricate food for ease of swallowing. For reptiles, it is used to subdue prey and yes, it does begin the digestive process, however it is not essential to it. Over the years, I have had many venomous snakes that became accustomed to eating pre-killed prey and for years, they never bit their food and digested it just fine. Therefore, the correlation of salivary glands in humans vs reptiles is of no consequence.

"Have you ever taken a piece of pocorn and held it in your mouth without chewing it? If you haven't, your digestive enzymes (saliva) dissolves & breaks down the popcorn. Basically this is the same principal employed by venomous snakes."

Again, saliva does begin the digestive process even in humans, however there have been many cases of people not having functioning salivary glands and they have to drink with their meal to help "wash it down", but it is not essential part of the process and you can live fine without it. This is not the same function as in reptiles and is therefore irrelevant.

"PLEASE don't contribute to this barbaric "medical prosedure"."

So I assume that none of you anti-voiders have ever had your dogs or cats spayed or neutered or declawed. Never had a ferret that was descented or bird with clipped wings, right? I mean why would you subject them to such barbaric procedures.

"I suggest becoming adept at handling "hot" snakes & employ them into your presentation."

Venomoid or not, you should handle any venomous snakes the same, especially in the view of the public. Nothing makes a worse impression than holding a rattlesnake, v-oid or not.

"If not, use photos."

While photos are a useful tool, they just don't make a lasting impression on eager young minds.

I think if live snakes were used in your presentation, it would serve for a more powerful & captivating presentation to your audience. You must convey to your audience that venomous snakes should be respected, but also illustrate that if given a wide berth, venomous snakes pose no real danger to human lives.

I do agree with this statement. I do many educational presentations, but many places, especially schools, will not allow venomous snakes. Therefore, I have to use venomoid snakes. I handle them as if they were a hot snake and the only people who know they are venomoid are myself, my assistants, and the powers that be that are concerned with the liability of using a hot snake. I do not advertise that they are venomoid to the audience.

"I have had numerous venomous snakes over the years & what fasinates me the most about them is that they have this remarkable & efficient defense mechanism but when they feel they are not threatened, they are uninclined to use it. Please reconsider your idea about venomoids."

And finally, I again agree that venomous snakes are fascinating creatures. I have many hot's myself and I like letting them stay hot. But I am not opposed to having venomoids either. I think you should keep an open mind and do what you feel is right. Just don't free handle a rattlesnake in front of a bunch of kids.

The example you gave of spaying or nuetering a dog was actually the point I was typing about when I saw your post, which I find interesting. I never thought of the ferret desencting...

The spaying and neutering isn't a fair relation; because you don't have a stray population problem. Nor is there an overflowing euthanasia rate for hot herps at the local shelter because there is no room.

You kinda have a point with the declawing, but then again, having a cat live in a cage is much less an option than a hot snake.

Ian

I understand your point about the over-population problem, but if an owner is responsible, then they won't allow their pets to breed, unless it's intentional, and they will just have to accept any negative behaviors that unfixed animals tend to have. Just the same as if a hot owner is responsible, he won't be bit and will accept the fact that this snake can kill him. But sometime people just want to make life a little simpler and take those precautions, so in a way, it is similar... "butchering" an animal to remove a natural, yet undesired trait or ability. But the fact of the matter is that spay/neuter is a widely accepted and often encouraged course of action. So why shouldn't surgery on a snake be just as widely accepted. Do you think people have their dogs neutered for it's own good? No, they do it to remove undesirable traits and to eliminate the possibilities of future generations suffering due to over-population issues. It is just like any other animal, the custodian is to determine what is in its or their own best interest.

Like anything in this world, I do believe it should be done by someone skilled and competent enough to do the surgery correctly without harming the snake. But there will always be garage hacks out there, just as there will be fake doctors, and crappy auto mechanics. There's just not much that can be done to stop it. A buyer just has to be smart enough to avoid buying a snake like that so hopefully the hacks will crawl back into the woodwork.

Many people argue that it is cruel to do it to a snake, but the fact of the matter is, that a venomoid will still strike moving prey and will still bite in defense, which would lead one to believe that the snake does not know what happened to it. It goes to sleep, it wakes up with a sore head, it heals, and it goes on. Is it cruel to have your ferret go to sleep, wake up with a sore ass, heal and go on.....go on not smelling as bad? If you think that is cruel, then you should direct your energy at the millions of ferret owners instead of the handful of venomoiders.

Many antivoiders say that if you can't handle a hot, then you shouldn't have one. I was lucky enough to have a local mentor to teach me the ropes and I am proud to say that I have handled thousands of rattlesnakes, and a few other hots, and have never been bitten, or even come close. But many people may not have the mentor option, therefore a venomoid may be a good place to start as the snake is going to act the same no matter what.

What about those, such as in the original post here, that may not be able to do education with hots due to liability reasons? We all know that it can be done safely even with hots and that it is administrators ignorance making the rules. But why not use a venomoid if it makes the difference?

Now what I don't agree with is people wanting venomoids so they can look cool holding a rattlesnake and to show off. But I don't believe anyone should own any animal just for that purpose. Then again, it's going to happen whether we like it or not.

This post is running a bit long, so I will conclude by saying that there are many legitamate reasons to have a venomoid snake. And, there are a few not so legit reasons. This is no different than owning a 15' python, a 10' gator, or even a pit bull. I see no reason to condemn all venomoids and those who keep them based on the few bad apples. To me, that is akin to the bias in many laws prohibiting exotics because there are a few idiots out there ruining it for all the legitimate keepers.
Ok, there's my thoughts for the night, flame on.....

Spaying and neutering can not be logically compared to venomoiding a snake. Spaying and neutering DOES in fact have useful benefits for the animal, and is not done just for convenience or to control behavior problems. Intact animals are capable of developing various cancers of their reproductive organs, which in neutered animals is either not possible or the chance is greatly reduced. Female dogs can also develop an infected uterus, a potentially life threatening illness, but if spayed this will never be a risk.

Venomoiding is done so a person can own a venomous snake without REALLY owning a venomous snake, which seems a little absurd. If you want a snake that you can handle without the threat of death, there are hundreds of beautiful non-venomous snakes available on today's market. There is no need to mutilate one of God's creatures for your own benefit. And unlike spaying and neutering, there is absolutely NO benefit to the snake when its venom glands are removed.

It's wise to change your opinion simply because people will torch you here? Without going into my views on the whole venomoid thing, I disagree with changing your stance because others may disagree. This is America, where an individual can hold any stance they choose. Stick to your guns!

Sorry I'm confused. Who was your post directed to?

I was responding to "texasreptiles" who said "It's wise to change your attitude about "venomoids" because people on this forum will torch you." I simply don't think it wise to change your stance on ANYTHING simply because others may or may not agree.

Unfortunately, people need to accept that venomoids have become a controversial issue that's growing in popularity and I believe it is not because of the negative opinions expressed on forums like this one. If the claims and opinions regarding venomoid surgery have any valid facts, then why is it that more people are getting venomoids and more venomous reptiles dealers are willing to sell their animals to a DVM who will surgically alter the animal.

It's time some people wake up a realize that the choice to devenomize a snake it's not based on animal rights, ethics, or other argumentative factors, but rather the simplest reason which is safety. A venomoid cobra with full adenectomy and ductectomy that accidentaly gets out of its cage and bites someone in the community will definetly make the news and have a negative impact in our hobby, but it's not going to kill someone.

You did not specify whether you were a freshman in high school or a freshman in college, but I think since you used the word "endevour" I can assume college. That word seems to only come about when kids graduate from high school. If you are only a freshman in HS I will say your post was definitely well said and more clear than I would expect from someone with these thoughts at that age. With this in mind, I would say you have a good mind for potential conservation work like you were thinking.

The problem is the thinking of using venomoids. There really isn't any reason for it. Whether you are 14 or 18, you have many years before you should be working with venomous or once venomous snakes in this kind of atmosphere.

You definitely do not want people thinking they should appreciate snakes because you have had their means of defense and food taken away. You want people to appreciate the snakes in the area for what they are and respect them as such.

I would recommend starting out by doing programs for schools using non-venomous snakes and explain why venomous snakes are just as important. Once you develop more experience, and possibly an appreciation by the community for your efforts, you can some day move to displaying venomous snakes.

I have been doing these kinds of things for awhile. An organization I started is actually doing a program for the community this weekend. We are joining with a nature center who has put on this event before and expects a rather large turnout. People will not get to see any venomoids or any venomous snakes, with the exception of colubrids, but I will guarantee you they will leave with a deep appreciation for them...especially after we talk about contortrostatin and the new anti-HIV properties found in toad skin.

I did educational programs for over twenty years. These were given to civic groups, herp societies & public & private schools. I used live native fully equipped venomous snakes. They were transported in locked cages, but were removed from the cages during the program. I had a buffer zone between me & the audience. There were never any incidents or even close calls.
My thoughts on venomoids have always been that if you don't have what it takes to work with a fully equipped venomous snake, then you ought not to work with them. Period. Brutalizing a snake to make up for one's lack of skill is just wrong.

The above paragraph is not meant as a flame. The program I did is the attached link. If you decide to continue with an educational snake program, regardless as to how you wish to approach it, feel free to use any information on that site.

~~Greg~~
The Venomous Snakes of Florida

"Brutalizing a snake to make up for one's lack of skill is just wrong"

While I generally agree with your statement it may also come down to how risk adverse the person is. From an insurance and liability perspective venomiod snakes would be more desireable. IF a greater good is achieved AND the proceedure is done properly by a skilled vet I wouldn't be casting stones at the individual!

Still, the big question to me is why use venomous snakes at all? I fail to see how taking all the neccesary percautions and establishing a buffer zome between yourself the snakes and the audience does anything but re-enforce peoples perceptions about snakes. When I was doing programs I simply used native non-venomous that people could handle if they choose and covered venomous animals with a brief slide presentation. The presentations weren't "sensational" but that wasn't my goal. Education was.

Educational programs can also be done with venomoids, but as most people know, every venomoid keeper is not doing educational programs which leads some to believe that venomoids have become a novelty rather than a form of education. Regardless what the choice is for the buyer to keep a venomoid in captivity, they should have the available resources and people to share their opinions rather than the unrespectful and uneducated approach some individuals have towards this particular topic.

This basically has more to do with the expertise and presentation by the keeper. I have seen Greg work a number of times with venomous in reptile shows. His presentation was professional, very matter of fact, and he never went for the cheap thrill some do.

And that is the point. The extra precausions such as locks and hooks demonstrate that these are animals that need to be respected. Also, the way a handler works with unaltered hots is different.

Venomoid handlers do not have the sense of precaution with their animals as they have less to fear. This additude is projected to the audience-especially children (who do notice)and actually lessens their respect for what a truly venomous snake is capable of. It presents an inacurate picture.

Why use venomous in a show? The obvious reason is to educate people about what they might find when away from the city streets-both the pro and con. Venomoids are an entertainment snake first, as you may handle them (again) with less concerns but for the same reason inferior to an unaltered animal.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

although your views on venomoids might be different, your post has true value.

Randall had some great advice. You definitely are pushing a button of a very hotly depated topic. As you will see, you won't get much support for having or using a venomoid for education.

I am curator of a very successful wildlife conservation facility that focuses on education, field research, rescues/rehab and public exhibits.....herps being our primary target of interest (with raptors a distant second). We implemented a rattlesnake conservation education program that has been met with rave reviews from teachers, students and superintendents. Yes, we do incorporate REAL venomous rattlesnakes into our program (which also includes giving students an opportunity to touch our resident Gila Monster and, in some cases, a safely tubed eastern massasauga). Most schools, whether these animals are venomoid or not, will not allow venomous into their schools. I have been able to carve a niche because they know that we are professionals and they know that their students will be safe when we visit.

It sounds like your intentions are very good but if you cannot keep a fully venomous snake, along with the required antivenin (which could run from the hundreds to thousands of dollars), then you shouldn't keep a venomous for now. Instead, see if the university you are at is willing to keep a venomous snake in the lab for you to work with. You can certainly show this snake in a locked container but only after you have met the other criteria. You can show a variety of live, harmless snakes to a group of students and then show them some high quality pictures of the native venomous herps of that area....believe me, that will make just as nice of an impact on them. We constructed some double pane, shatterproof glass front, heavy wood portable exhibit cages that we use when putting on special displays at schools, nature centers, zoos, museums, etc. If you are interested in doing something like this, that would be possible but only with a fully hot snake....venomoids can give the wrong message even if done with the best of intentions (and I am not necessarily against venomoids just to set the record straight.......MOST people keeping venomous snakes SHOULDN'T and in my opinion they would be better off keeping a venomoid just for the sheer sake of public safety....but that's a TERRIBLE reason to butcher a snake so that's why I am against it). School kids LOVE reptiles and they will get just as much of a kick at seeing a beautiful green snake as they would if it were a 16' king cobra. Focus on conservation of herps utilizing nice, healthy harmless specimens that provide hands on opportunities and you'll do more for herp conservation than any live venomous snake....yes, we incorporate both but I have been teaching kids for decades and having done many programs w/out venomous, they get just as much out of it as when I incorporate a venomous herp or two. Your time will come.

Hope this helps a little,

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Okay. First off I am a freshman in the DF/W area in Texas planning to major in Herpetology and go into zoological husbandry of venomous snakes or private milking of venom for use in making antivenom.
>>Lately I have been tossing around the idea of doing educational programs on the native wildlife/herps and safety for my Elementary school. I have especially noticed a hatred for all snakes. Even harmless garter snakes and green snakes (called "Garden" snakes here) are slaughtered in the thinking they may be venomous. I hope to kill this habit at least in my neighborhood. I can easily come by most harmless herps from the area and easily keep them. My last real yearn is to show them what to look for in a venomous snake, and to respect them for the awesome creatures they are. This is where it starts to get interesting, in a way.
>>I have been thinking of buying a native species of venomoid. In my thinking (tell me I'm thinking wrong) keeping a venomoid snake could help improve the public's thinking on reptiles to thinking of what awesome animals they are and that they should always be treated with the upmost respect. I would really like to see a future generation of conservationists in my town of people who disregard wildlife completely. It would really be a life saver for not only the wildlife, but maybe in a rare case a child (though I somewhat doubt this). Anyway, down to my question. What kind of native snake do you think would be an appropriate venomoid for this endevour? Or even if this would be feasible? I have the appropriate skill for safely handling most snakes and have practiced for the past three years on water snakes and the occasional copperhead. I have been thinking the best candidate for this would be a medium WDB or a Agkistrodon c. c. Thanks for any input
>>Thekidgecko
>>P.S. This post isn't very detailed because I was three-quarters of the way through and I accidently pushed tab then backspace and I lost my whole post, so if there are any questionable points please ask before you flame because I'm tired and most likely forgot something. And thanks for not freaking at first by seeing venomous and elementary school near each other
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

In terms of your educating the public, its a noble effort, but whether or not you have a venomoid is immaterial. If you are a skilled keeper and qualified to use any species of Crotalid for your demonstrations, using an un-altered snake will and CAN be done without any risk to the public. In fact, the risk involved is so minuscule, its almost non-existent.

You need to remember that you have to teach the public to be RESPECTFUL of the capabilities of these snakes, but ever cognizant, that the real demeanor of rattlesnakes is actually more peaceful than a dog or cat. A captive born venomous snake, RAISED from a neonate, will exhibit this behavior, thus rendering venomoids completely unnecessary.

MCH

I the case of so many responses (as I somewhat expected...), I will respond in order of posts.

Randal: I thought you might like this subject and respond as you did. Thanks for your input, I already knew some people might flame my post but so far everyone has taken a very friendly way which I have found quite nice. (Also, when is the next Arlington show? I think once my ciliatus start hatching I might come as a vendor.)And yes, I would rather go into antivenon production .

"Frawg": Thanks for your input, also. I think it is very interesting on how divided the reptile community is on this subject. It almost saddens me, but alas that is for another thread completely. Yes, I now find myself quite adept at handling most pit vipers, though I do need to practice more with elapids, perhaps with racers or something of the like (anyone have ideas for practicing for elapids?).

"eunectes4": Thank you for those comments, and no, I am a freshman in High School. I think your ideas are very good, though with smaller children I would rather take no chance, rather than the extremely minute chance when usuing a "hot" snake.

Greg/Tony: Also another interesting point. Although I do tend to lean slightly toward Tony's point, but yours is also very convincing. It's not that I have a lack of skill, but a lack of guts or reliance on pure chance to have one around children, which is why I asked if people here thought this would be a good idea. By no means must I do it. I could just go using harmless native snakes caught locally, which I might end up doing.

Carmicheal: As I said above I am not in a University, thus that is, unfortunately, not a realistic option altough a great idea. I am all for correctly done venomoids so no need to discuss (or flame in other people's case) on this subject.

Matt: "Without any risk to public" is a virtual statement. I don't like playing numbers with the public.

Bryan: Thanks. I have done quite a bit of reasearch on venomoids and have been looking into a Crotalus atrox with a full adenectomy and human grade replacement implants. I have been looking at getting this done through Carolina Reptile Exchange.

Leucistic cobra: Greats points. I like your open perspective on this subject and contains valuable advice.

Concluding this post I think this has been a very informational thread so far and thank you all for your input and friendly approach to this somewhat touchy topic. I have really appreciated it. Thanks to all,
Mason

I have used many rattlesnakes and even bushmasters for public displays, and even out of the cage, they do not pose a risk to the public (keep in mind, I use the calmer snakes that I own, not one thats a firecracker). For a school assembly, if I were taking the snakes out of the cage at all, typically I place a rattlesnake on a table, preferably up on a stage. Students are usually 10-12 feet away at the closest. There is no way a rattlesnake is going to get more than 4 feet away from me in any direction. Therefore, there is never a need to be concerned about the snake biting, let alone striking some one else. Therefore, you would not need a venomoid. Generally, when facilities and program, they either don't have a problem with you display the snake on a table, or they tell you it has to stay locked in a cage! There's never a case of "Oh, well, if its venomoid, that's different."

While there is never any "Zero probability Risk" it is low enough that you should never have any concern of using a snake even if it is hot. If you have any worry whatsoever about not being able to control a snake, than you will have that same risk of it escaping period.

The chances of someone getting bitten are nil. If there's any chance of the snake escaping or you losing control of it.....You SHOULD NOT be taking the snake out of the cage period.

I'm assuming you've handled a few rattlesnakes snakes, and are confident in your skills as a handler.

"Bryan: Thanks. I have done quite a bit of reasearch on venomoids and have been looking into a Crotalus atrox with a full adenectomy and human grade replacement implants. I have been looking at getting this done through Carolina Reptile Exchange. "

Please take the opportunity to research more about venomoid dealers prior to making your purchase. Although I do believe Bruce at CRE claims to use DVM for his venomoids, you might want to check out other DVMs that surgically alter snakes.

There has been no evidence related to reparative regeneration of venom ducts in Vipers and that's why you will find a several venomoid specimens which still have full glands; however, there has not been much research on Crotalids and I believe the idea of a adenectomy and ductectomy definetly sounds like a good decision. On vipers and crotalids adenectomies are more invasive than on most elapids due to the placement of their venom glands and the surgical area required for either internal procedures or those behind the skull.

""eunectes4": I am a freshman in High School."

I have to admit that you write extremely well in comparison to most first year students in High School. I'm hoping you are doing research early about the possibility of purchasing a venomoid and/or keeping venomous snakes, rather than just considering buying anything anytime soon. I'm not sure about your age, but when I was in HS in the same grade as you, I was definetly not of legal age or even buy tabacco, let alone and venomous snake. I also read something about you considering breeding some snakes you currently have in captivity. I cannot recall what type of snakes these are, but if they are venomous, you might want to realize that in most states I believe if you are under 18 yrs old, you cannot purchase or sell venomous snakes.

Thank you. In Texas the only laws on any native venomous, (except for horridus, which are protected), venomoid or not, are local. Natives are legal to anyone as long as the local laws do not restrict it. As far as exotics, there are many more laws that regulate them. As far as I have found, there are no laws or regulations in my county or city that regulate native venomous or venomoids (which aren't actually recognized differently, as is in most places across the United States...) I don't live in an apartment or rent, so I have no landlord rules, thankfully. Also another good consideration, cobra.

I dug a bit deeper and did find some things about [insert company name] and don't like what I see. If I do end up getting a venomoid, I am considering someone like Venomoid, Inc. If anyone does have suggestions or comments about this company please tell me. Also I heard he did the surgeries himself, and that he is a DVM. Is this true?
Thanks

Check link for information regarding your question.
Requested info

go to Yahoo and type "devenomized" that should give you some results to help you research more about your questions.

I think it is wonderful that you want to educate people about reptiles especially at an elementary school level! The true need for educating kids at that level can be seen in the articles that have been posted lately about children being bitten by venomous snakes. As a father of two children (one still in elementary school) I thank you for your efforts. I wish more people were comitted to education!

At the same time, I commend you for posting on here about your ideas and about the possiblity of using a venomoid snake. As you can see from the replied that it is a hot (excuse the pun) topic. I encourage you to really study about venomoids, the surguries, the after effects, etc. This is another part that you could include in your education programs (though it might be a little deep for the elementary school children). Best of luck to you and please keep us updated in how everything is going! Take care!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

The venomoid forum at KS is dead due to the unfortunate fact that people cannot carry a proper debate about any of the issues involving venomoids. Do a search on most search engines for "devenomized" or "venomoid" and you might find other useful links.

I would also recommend to listen to everyone's opinion on this controversial subject, but also acknowledge there are other perspectives on this controversial issue.

I make my living doing Reptile Educational Programs in Schools here in Austin, TX. It is ILLLEGAL in Texas to take a Venomous Snake into a Public School. Reguardless of how it is contained. They need to come to you and your facility.

I would also think twice about dealings with Carolina Reptile Exchange. Check out threads in another site for more info.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

I agree about CRE I have heard and seen lots of questionable animals that have gone through their surgery to become venomoids. faunaclassifieds has a board of inqury that can provide more info on different vendors. You may want to read through some of the postings on there.
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Rescued Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Rescued Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-1-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-0-1 Rescued Dieting Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
0-1-0 Rescued Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids