Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My kingsnake has not eaten by herself for over a month and a half. I force fed it some pinkey heads a couple of times, but it still dosen't want to eat.

She has these pinkish patches on her body from her shedding a little while back. She kept rubbing her body agains a rock (I placed in there when she was having difficulties shedding).

Today i tried to feed her; I tried leaving her in a plastic container with the pinkey and i covered the contrainer with a towel. After i made a small cut in the top of the head(sorry for those who are reading this and are squeemish)so that the pinkey's smell would be stronger. after that, i wrapped the pinkey with a different snake's skin, but she still didn't eat it.

Can somebody please help me!

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-Emily: The snake gal

I would recommend cooling it down to about 55 degrees for a couple of months and then warm it back up and try then.

Kerby...

I'm no where near an expert but these are something you can do. DO NOT cool her down yet or anything, I dont understand why that would help. After a month and a half (if its a hatchling) you should really try a bunch of things, here are some other animals you could make him eat or scent a pinky on (note: you probably can't get each of these animals but maybe you have friends).

peromyscus mice (white footed /deer mice)
chinese hamsters
russian hamsters
roborovski's hamsters
Djungarian hamsters
gerbils
syrian hamsters
pygmy mice scent
rat blood scent
rat fecal scent

..........

guppies
crickets
grasshoppers
worms
.............

anole lizards
sceloporous (fence) lizards
skinks
,,small whole liz or tails broken off and bleeding or scented pinks with liz blood on them........

.......

IF live pinks with or without blood don't work.......frozen actually work alot ....cut brain if they don't and use deli-cup to confine baby snake....

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0.0.1 Elaphe guttata (Blaze)
Yea I'm a N00b!

Thank you so much! Would small goldfish work? If not, how much do anoles cost?

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-Emily: The snake gal

The pic of your snake...how recent is it? It looks perfect to me. If the snake maintains bodyweight similar to the pic then you are worrying over nothing. The main thing you have to supply that snake with is fresh water. The post with 20 different things to try feeding it was really overkill. Chances are, if the snake has water,,,,and is kept at proper temps it will begin feeding eventually. Kerby's comment about cooling...IS something that does indeed work. You are mimicing brumation/hibernation when you do this, and when temps rise the snakes instinct will associate that with spring and then in many cases they will eat everything in sight. The bottom line is it will do no harm to wait a while and see what happens. Something you do need to watch for is emaciation, especially close to the tail.If the skin starts folding in like a deflated tire then you have to worry. It will be noticeable. So please let me know about the time that pic was taken, and please do not offer that snake anything other than what it had ate in the past. Plain ol mouse pinkies should be fine. If you are still paranoid take more pics and post them for us to take a look at. Tom Stevens

**I dont understand why that would help**

LOL

Like I said, cool the cal king for a couple of months and then feed, pretty simple.

Kerby...

Ok out of this list I would avoid the following

The rodents below are fine if you can find them

peromyscus mice (white footed /deer mice)
chinese hamsters
russian hamsters
roborovski's hamsters
Djungarian hamsters
gerbils
syrian hamsters
pygmy mice scent
rat blood scent
rat fecal scent

..........
OUT OF THESE AVOID ALL OF THEM AS ALL OF THEM CAN/WILL INTRODUCE PARASITES

guppies
crickets
grasshoppers
worms
.............
OUT OF THESE AVOID ALL OF THEM

anole lizards
sceloporous (fence) lizards
skinks
,,small whole liz or tails broken off and bleeding or scented pinks with liz blood on them........

In other words stick to rodents and you will be fine.

First thing that comes to mind is that you mention that she had a shedding problem. That means your cage is not setup properly. There are plenty of places to find the proper setups for colubrids. None of these involve sand.

For some reason a lot of people put a desert phase cal king in a desert setup. This is like putting a water snake in a cage full of water. It is just a name. These snakes require humidity. Next would be your temps. Make sure they are in the right ranges. Too hot and too cold will keep your snake from eating.

As far as getting your snake eating if everything is setup right. You can try feeding both live day old pinks and frozen in a brown paper bag. The bag should be the smallest one you can find. Like a bag they used to give you with your beer at 7-11. If that doesn't work you already know the braining thing. Just try it in a paper bag. Scenting seems to be something you are already familiar with and the do not feed list above can be used for scenting.

Another trick is using mouse tails to feed the kings to get food in them. It is not the most nutritious but it will get them used to eating mice. Cut off the tails of frozen mice and thaw them. Hold the snake behind the head and tease it. That is hit it in the head until it grabs the tail. Sound mean but it works. Wait and see if the snake will eat the tail on its own. If not try again. If after a few times it won't eat on its own or it won't grab the tail you will need to force the tail a little way down the throat. Again give it a chance to finish on its own. The idea is to let it learn how to eat in a way. Also give it at least 3-4 days if not more between attempts and don't handle it at all until it eats regularly.

Good luck and if you have the ability cooling it might work as Kerby stated.

Later Jason

Cooling down works for mostly all non feeding hatchlings....
You see...in the wild some hatchlings live solely on their yolk reserve then brumate...after cooling they begin to feed....at least that is what has been told to me over the years....So, I cool down my nonfeeders for 6 weeks and when they get warmed up 90% of them feed readily.....

Your alternate food items will work too, but what happens when they are not available anymore? The neonate snake's metabolism has been kicked in and weight must be kept on the snake or it will eventually start kinking due to malnutrition then eventually dying.

So....This late in the year I believe it to be a great idea to cool it down for 6 weeks or so and try again in when you warm the calking back up......

John Lassiter

Please allow me to wonder.

Kingsnakes hatch from late august to early sept. And you think they do not feed until the next march??? hmmmmmmmmmmmm Thats over 6 months. How odd. Heck the wild babies around here are half grown by then.(OK not all of them, but some of them are)

It seems to me, your kind of thinking is a form of rationalizing to fit your needs. I am sure a baby somewhere did not feed until the next spring. Maybe even a certain percentage of late hatched individuals, but you use the exception as a tool is pretty much a bandage approach to suit your mentality. Why not just learn what conditions are condusive to good health and feeding.

I do not disaggree with your cooling approach, it surely can work, but the key is in your statement. You said to cool it, then warm it up. hmmmmmm how about warming it up now and forget the cooling, as cooling may be the problem in the first place. At this time of year, room temperature may no longer be suitable.

Yes I am back to my old, offer a temperature range. If that individual snake had a range of temps from 65 or 70F to about 90 or so, I am sure it would eat your finger if givin a chance.

Please understand, as HMK mentioned down below, we have been on a field site since the seventies, and one thing we learned, snakes spend their entire life picking different temps to suit different needs. It really is not that hard of a concept to grasp. Cheers FR

Frank,

Do the kingsnakes you observe in the wild ever double clutch, as they often do in captivity?

Terry

Thats a very good question. Officially scientifically speaking, NO. That is, there is no direct proof yet.

On the otherhand, I do believe they do, in fact, I have seen evidence of more then double clutching. That is, I set out AC around two pyro nesting areas, and observed up to four distint waves of neonates emerging from the nesting areas. But there is no way of knowing if one female was responsible for more then one clutch. the waves of babies were about one month apart which was rather indictative of multiclutching.

Also, many of our colubrid snakes can be found gravid over a very long period. Lets take gophersnakes, you can find gravid females from late april to august, early sept. Thats over four months. The same can be seen with many species including getulus and pyros.

When observing this, the individuals often compare well to captive females. Early in the year(first clutches) females are big and healthy, thick body mass(fat) late in the year, gravid females can be very very skinny, thin body mass(depleted fat stores)

I believe I mentioned seeing a gravid gophersnake splattered all our the road by my house last month, the site of eggs all over the road is wonderful(just not in a good way)

When we are out snake hunting we often say things like, that appears to be a second or third clutch, when veiwing a gravid female. Judging that by the month and condition of the female. It does compare well to captives.

So yes, I believe they do, but current methods that could prove that, are disruptive and interfere with snakes lives(collecting and tagging or surgery for tracking devices) I would love to see if operating and installing a radio in a captive female/s would interfere with reproductive potential. My opinion is, it surely would and I would not do that to my captives. Its hard enough to get them to multiclutch without such setbacks.

So in the end, its not about the snakes, whether they do or do not, its about how we study them. Its kinda like studying watermelons with a tank. We run them over and then say watermelons are kinda round and flat, and leak their insides all over the place. FR

That certainly can work Frank....I think I will try it next year.
Thanks for the tip.

Also....I did say that was how it was taught (told) to me over the years.....and this method does work about 90% of the time.
I never said it was fact......Since I have not witnessed any of this in the field. It is fact that it works for me in captivity.

Frank....Do you think all the hatchlings from one clutch in the wild feed readily on prey items? Or do some die of starvation?
I know some do not make it due to the fact they are eaten by predators....but do the ones that avoid predators all make it in the wild?
See.....We as captive breeders are trying to have a 100% hatch rate and 100% rate of hatchlings making it into adulthood. This does not happen in the wild....or does it? Just a guess...it does not.....

John Lassiter

I saw one today that is going to die of starvation. actually I
don't know if starvation is the problem or a secondary symptom, but the little sucker was near deaths door.

Forks

Please understand, theres a huge difference from not finding food, and not eating food in front of you. The wild neonates surely and commonly die of starvation, but its not from lack of a feeding response, its about not finding suitable food sources. What we are discussing here is a LACK of feeding responce.

Do you understand the difference?

Now do you see how your arguement reflects rationalization. Your using it to support your thoughts, yet neglecting a huge difference in actual reality. In my opinion, wild reptiles have a much better feeding responce then captives. They also have the ability to choose the conditions they need.

Consider, reptiles in nature breed like crazy, yet each one infests itself with parasites with each and every meal. Yet is still strong enough to reproduce. Wild reptiles can do do endure, to much heat/cold, lack of food, parasites, predators, no rain, to much rain, and us, and still exsist/reproduce/grow/progress.

Also there is no arguement, in spite of having parasites, wild snakes can and do successfully consume far larger prey items then captives. Try feeding on of your snakes until food is hanging out its mouth(no room to go in) and see what happens. This occurs in nature without incident. There must be a reason.

So yes, the majority of natures snakes die, but not form lack of a feeding response. thanks FR

Thanks for your response Frank....
I was merely asking a question not arguing at all.
And I WAS rationalizing to meet what I believe to be true.....
John Lassiter

we all rationalize at some time or another. Its really about asking the right questions. Then not thinking the answers are set in stone. There is always the next better right. hahahahahahaha Thanks FR

Other species of animals have newborn that are sick and don't eat and die, even with parental care. I'm sure there are snakes that are hatched/born that also do not feed in the wild (weaker snakes for whatever reason) and end up dying for other reason besides not finding a food source.

Of course, no evidence just an assumption.

Kerby...

I do understand, you can say, "its possible that this or that" and I am sure this or that can happen. But that really is silly of you Kerby, heres why;

Of stinking course theres a percentage of wild snakes that are deformed and die, that percentage is very very small. As in to small to be of concern. Heck Kerby you COULD be bitten in the throat by an albino cerb thats two headed(and gravid). There is a possibility of that too. Isn't there. So arguing that, this and that is possible in nature is very weak, as we are not in nature. These snakes are in the hands of people who may have NO experience at all. OH, they do have reptile experience, they had a gecko once(for a week)

The point here is reptiles are extotherms, and respond directly to their enviornmental conditions. In nature, they have control over their choosing from a range of conditions.(sir, that is what they do, make choices)(heck, thats about all they do)

In captivity they do not do what they are designed to do
(to choose), they are told(forced) to do what the keeper allows. If the keeper does not allow suitable conditions, then the snake has no choice but to fail. If nature forces them out of a certain range, they will fail also. Yes, that happens in nature, the cause is the same, the snake cannot make the right choices. IT dies.

Why does a captive baby snake not feed? Thats a good question and far more important to the discussion for the dead kingsnake, then trying to relate it to nature. They do not feed because they cannot feed. Thats a real possibility you know. That is, if conditions are suboptimal, they cannot digest food, hence force feeding will only hasten death. There are two common simple physical causes of this, improper temps and improper H2O balance(dehydrated), both hinder to stop the ability to digest food. So why would a snake feed if it cannot digest the food. They try real hard not to. Then of course there's behavioral stresses that can cause this, a individual snake sitting in a barren cage with no where to hide, this can indeed cause enough stress in some individuals to cause death. In a cage with another snake(or a bearded dragon) that causes undue stress, again this can cause a lack of feeding responce. These are for healthy snakes.

Then the snake/s can be sick. This too, hinders a feeding response. The stuff from the previous paragraph can cause the snake to be sick. Again, causing lack of feeding. Hmmmm theres a 500 percent chance that the cause is in the above paragraphs, then anything to do with wild snakes.

All these are very probable causes for the failure of the snake in this thread. As well as the many many that have posted "my snake won't eat" in the short time I have been on this forum. I am sure, you have see literally hundreds of these posts. Do you really think this is related to what wild snakes do? I don't think so Kerby. I know you think all or 99% of these posts are keeper error. Sir, do I have your agreement? Its not about the wild snakes, in any way, form or fashion.

Now to why you and John are arguing this point, its not about what happen to this snake or the other "my snake won't eat" posts, its about a small percentage of your and Johns snakes that are reluctant to feed. Am I right again? So you both rationalize that its normal for snakes, that way you are not responsible. Hmmmmmmmm I am right again. Both of you are responsible. No matter how good you are.

Now for the punchline. Are you two so darn good at this, that you believe your husbandry is totally accurate and spot on? Are you that egotistical to believe its not your fault? Of course its your fault and when it happens to me, its my fault. Blaming the snake is very very weak, don't you think?

Kerby, I feel I can say this to you, because I think your a man. A man of your word, and man who tries very very hard to do the right thing. Am I right again? So for it to be something thats the snakes fault is maybe 1 in 10,000. So if thats the percentage that it happens to you, then OK, your right. But if its more then that, its most likely, something your missing in your husbandry or a simple mistake you made somewhere along the line. I am sure, its very rare with you.

But can you compare your experience and ability with those who post "my snake won't eat"??????? Sir, I am thinking its not the snakes fault. Am I right again?

Before you guys jump my bones, I do have an advantage, I have been doing this a very long time, in that time, I indeed got to make all the wonderful mistakes you guys are experiencing now. I got to make them, I got to have giant fights with myself(nobody else would fight with me) and I finally got to learn from it and go on to the next level of mistakes. Then to the next, then to the next. Then somewhere along the line you learn, its not about being right, its merely finding new ways to be wrong. hahahahahahahahahaha.

I really think your doing a heck of a job. But you really ought to get over, its the snakes fault thing. Its yours, no matter how good your are. Thanks for fighting with me. FR

So where does one find an Albino, two-headed, gravid cerb?? Must have been produced by poor husbandry! LOL

**...its about a small percentage of your and Johns snakes that are reluctant to feed. Am I right again? So you both rationalize that its normal for snakes, that way you are not responsible. Hmmmmmmmm I am right again. Both of you are responsible. No matter how good you are.**

I'm guilty there! I agree that I think that since approximately 90% of my snakes feed and most will feed after a short brumation, then it is not my fault. I am guilty of that. If the culprit is not perfect (not poor) husbandry, then let's say, why do 8 out of 9 snakes eat from the same clutch? The conditions must be right if they (8) feed. What conditions would make it better for that last snake to eat? Yes, I have read most of your previous posts. To me those odds make the conditions (temps/humidity/security, etc..) pretty good???? That was my logic.

Kerby...

Those results show that your 80% successful with your husbandry. Which means, you have another 20% to learn. Of course, a 100% would be impossible over large numbers and over long periods. So yes, you could improve a little.

You see, its not a big thing, one approach, blaming something else, stops you from learning(progressing)(its a learning wall or barrier) the other approach, taking responsibility, allows you to keep learning. Theres always more to learn.

To take it a step further, the only harm to you was limiting your learning, but then when you and John repeat it here, now you influencing the progress of other people. Just like whom ever told John that baby wild snakes do not feed until the next year. John used that information to handcuff himself.

Again, healthy neonates should feed under proper conditions. If they don't then take that as a sign that somethings wrong. You have two places to look, your husbandry, or is the snake sick. Which could be caused by your husbandry, or not. Then if your interested, take appropriate action, fix your husbandry and or, cure the snake.

You see, the same protectionist attitude is responsible for fostering all sorts of wifestails. Like the recent, snakes are not active in the winter thread, If you do not look because you don't think they are active, then you will never learn what the truth is.

Consider there are two approaches to this, I am an investigator, that is, I am always investigating what makes them tick. Many others are practictioners, they practice keeping snakes. As a investigator, I come up will all kinds of crap, some of use in keeping snakes, some not so useful, even if accurate. I think understanding how and why snakes use and pick different temps is of use. And its of use with the current subject.

There are other uses too, like snakes in nature conserve energy at all times, that is, they pick the temps that do not waste energy. In captivity, we put the throttle down in the summer and off in the winter. Whats the difference. When they controll their metabolism, they can optimise the use of food. That is, they take less food to achieve the same task. Wouldn't you like your snakes to grow as fast or faster, produce as much or more, and do that with less food? I am thinking yes you would, even if less food means less poop to clean. Thanks FR

If for whatever reason that cal king does not make it I will give you one for FREE that does eat regularly. I've got plenty.

e-mail me: azmilk@cableone.net

Kerby...

As long as you're giving advice on California Kingsnakes, how long should I wait to handle a 38 inch long California Kingsnake after I've fed him? I bought mine on Saturday and fed him for the first time on Wednesday. I gave him a thawed and warmed fuzzy that he took by the shoulders and ate sideways. He handled okay last night, but I'm not sure whether I shouldn't have let him wait longer. When should I expect him to defecate? He spends almost all of his time under a water bowl. Will he come out to defecate or do I need to move the bowl every day to be sure that things are clean underneath?

Thanks,

Bill

I would give him a couple of days after feeding before handling. Snakes feel secure when they are under a hide spot. He could defecate in his water bowl, or just about anywhere.

I feed my once a week. I'm sure there are times that they have a couple of feedings before they defecate. Snakes are individualists like us humans.

Kerby...

Emily

Do what Kerbys says. He has a very extensive collection of cal kings and knows what he is talking about.

If the snake looks the same as in the pic then I would not worry about anything for a while. It has great weight. Try a scented or brained pink (frozen thawed out sometimes works over live) and kkep trying until end of Nov. If nothing then cool for two months. It will come out eating like a champ and will probably spur a growth spurt that will surpass it size than if you kept feeding it. I have snakes that after i cooled them eat and grow so fast they actually get bigger than the ones that feewd all winter. Try and you will not be dissapointed.

Also if its not shedding properly put the snake in some water or provide a large water dish for it to saok in.

Emily....
Here is something I have posted before that works for my stubborn feeders....I breed lots of Mexicana subspecies that are know to be stubborn, but this works even with the stubborn getula I hatch out.....
I hope this helps.....I use these steps along with a few other techniques depending on the health of the snake I am trying to get feeding.......

Step 1: Offer live newborn pinkie. If it is refused then....

Step 2: Offer brained, live pinkie (YES brained and live) Or Brain a thawed pink and smear the brain matter on the live pinks nose. The brained pinkie is cut from snout to base of skull. If it is taken, reduce the incision each time until it is no longer necessary to stimulate feeding. If it is refused then....

Step 3: Offer the brained, live pinkie under a dark, nontranslucent bowl with the stubborn feeder. Cover the snake and the prey and check in about 30 minutes or so. This has been the most effective method w/o scenting involved. If the snake refuses then...

Step 4: A lizard has to be obtained. I use Med. House Geckos. Freeze the lizard in a deep freeze right away for about 1 hour. Get a live newborn pinky and put the frozen lizard and the live pink in a container together and remove from freezer. The warmth of the pinkie will absorb the scent. Place it under a dark bowl with the snake and check in about 30 minutes or so. If the snake refuses then....

Step 5: Thaw out the lizard and cut its abdomen open. Dip the head of the pinkie into the guts of the lizard. Place some skin from the lizard on the pinky's head and place under the dark bowl with the snake. If this fails then....

Step 6: Most people would go ahead and repeat all the steps above for about 6 to 8 weeks until they get results. If the stubborn feeder does not feed then drop its temps to around 55 or 60 degrees for about 6 to 8 weeks. After removal from the temps repeat all the steps above.
Other people would feed then small lizards or lizard parts. I have had luck feeding them about 4 to 5 lizard meals then scenting pinks with such lizards. I have also had luck hibernating and then feeding. Remember if you start forcefeeding you will have to continue to do so to keep weight on the snake. It also stresses the snake out and it is harder to get them to start feeding on their own. Also, forcefeeding will kick in their metabolism and they will need to keep eating to keep on weight. They can live for months on the eggyolk absorbed in the egg. Just letting them wait on a winter cooling usually helps alot for spring feeding. I hear of people forcefeeding mouse tails successfully, but I have never even attempted it. The only force feeding I have done has had a low percentage of success. I have blended pinkies and used pinky pumps. I have even used Veal Gerbers baby food mixed with Pedialyte and Multivitamins successfully, but again it stressed the snake.
This is my abridged version but it should help you out. If you have any problems getting any thing eating drop me an email and I would be glad to help you out. Snakes are individual and each need a little something to get them convinced to eat pinkies and frozen thawed too...

JOHN LASSITER