Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This morning I found my caecilian on the ground, he had been there since last night. His underbody was still soft and he is alive however, the top of him is hard. I put him back in his tank immediately. What can I do to save him?

I have had this happen to me in the past, and what i did was just put him back into the tank and hoped for the best. That being said you need to secure your tank so he cant escape again (I once had 1 escape, then re-escape 10 minutes later while I was trying to find my glass top.) I would also check your water quality, im not sure if this is relevant but when mine escaped it was when I hadent changed the peet for awhile and the pH was neutral to hard. Also if you notice any cuts or scrapes on him you might want to try adding Mela-Fix, its an anti bacterial and will help speed up the healing of wounds.

Caecilians have poor survivial rates if they have been out long enough for any of the skin to dry out. There is really not too much you can do but home for the best.

They are prone to attempting to escape but the attempts will occur more frequently if the water quality is allowed to go down (nitrates over 60 ppm, the water being too hard and/or alkaline).

I would suggest not using mela-fix as this a an extract of tea tree oils and has been shown to readily penetrate skin and can cause liver toxicity (as well as other issues).

Ed

Huh good to know about the Mela-Fix, glad I have other fish tanks I can still use it in. Quick question though, isnt it safe for Axolotl's? I would of thought that something safe for one aquatic amphibian is safe for another.

If tea tree oil can cause problems with one species then there isn't any reason to believe it wouldn't cause it in another species. Do a search on tea tree oil and toxicity...

Ed

By being still a Bio student I may not know everything about organs especially in amphibians, but I do know the resilience of liver and the fact that it can regenerate itself. I would probably feel safer treating an animal with a product knowing that the damage done can be healed, then to risk a bacterial infection. As for references ill give you your own recomended site:

http://www.axolotl.org/health.htm
(at the bottom, listed as safe products)

and another
http://newt150.tripod.com/health.shtml

I did a search on Tea Tree Oil toxicity and could'nt find an article on toxicity to amphibians, I only found that different animals seem to be more sensative to it. I did however find that it was more harmful when injested, so maybe the caecilian shouldnt eat till the aquarium carbon has absorbed the access, or proper water changes have occured. Through all my reading I only found a problem when the product was misused (omit a case involveing cats and their slow metabolizeing rate due to weak liver). It seems for every site I find that has something good to say about tea tree oil, there is another that claims bad outcomes. Isnt it always the bad cases that are heard, and majority of the good cases since there is no longer a problem dont get as much attention. Can you please direct me to a site that relates this product to amphibians? Thanks.

Aquatic caecilians are fairly resiliant, in my experience with many of them. I can't give a brand name, but there are several products out there for tropical fish that specifically provide skin surface coating and protection for new introductions. If infection should develop later, the Nitrofurans (Furan II) are often used for superficial non-fungal fish infections. No clue as to their safety with caecilians, however.

From a previous post I made on caudata.org that includes a reference
snip "I would suggest being very careful with the melafix as this is an extract from the melaleuca tree and has been shown to be toxic to mammals and is readily absorbed through the skin (see Villar D, Knight MJ, Hansen SR, Buck WB. Toxicity of melaleuca oil and related essential oils applied topically on dogs and cats. Vet Human Toxicol. 1994;36(2):139-142.

Abstract: "Cases of melaleuca oil toxiosis have been reported by veterinarians to the National Animal Poison Control Center (NAPCC) when the oil was appled dermally to dogs and cats. In most cases, the oil was used to treat dermatologic conditions at inappropriate high doses. The typical signs observed were depression, weakness, incoordination and muscle tremors. The active ingredients of commercial melaleuca oil are predominantly cyclic terpenes. Treatment of clinical signs and supportive care has been sufficient to achieve recovery without sequelae within 2-3 days."

"Toxicity: The most common clinical signs reported to the Animal Poison Control Center by veterinarians with adverse reactions in dogs and cats after dermal exposure of melaleuca oil include ataxia, incoordination, weakness, tremors, behavioral disorders and depression. The acute toxcicity (rabbit dermal LD 50 and rat oral LC 50) for the major terpenic compounds (linalool, ocimene, alpha-terpinene, 1,8-cineole, terpinolene, camphene) ranges between 2 and 5 g/kg body weight, which is considered a moderately toxic range. From a toxicologic standpoint melaleuca oil can be compared to oil of turpentine, which is readily absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and skin." endsnip

Melaleuca oil is derived from three different types of trees and has been shown to be variable in its concentration as well as its makeup over the course of a year.
In addition, amphibian skin is very porus to a lot of different items, much more so then that of mammals or birds, so if you have a chemical that is readily absorbed via the skin in mammals it will be much more readily absorbed in amphibians (much like how scaleless fish are known to be much more sensitive to some medications.....)

It will take time for documented references in amphibians to come out as the vast majority of people that keep amphibians do not seek appropriate medical care nor do they get necropsies performed to see if the reason the animal died.

As for the liver, yes livers can regrow over time, however if there is sufficient tissue death the animal can die and in aquatic amphibians, disruption of the liver can be a major source of "bloat"...

Ed

I forgot to add, that exposure and absorbtion rates via baths are difficult to control in attempting to reach first a theraputic dose and second to not reach a toxic dose.

Lets turn the questions around,

Can you find any peer reviewed studies by a recognized journal or goverment (like the NIH) that show that it is safe to use?

Ed

I cannot find guaranteed documented sources for its safe use with amphibians. But I know and have heard of many people claiming to owe their amphibians rescued health to melafix/pimafix. Also considering the animal shouldnt be under constant exposure to the product or any treatment the liver shouldnt be too greatly affected IMO.
I also read that article on cats/dogs but wondered if they were the best example considering their cleaning routines(useing their tongue leading to ingestion, even if given a cone around their head I personally know my dogs tore them off).
But all in all I have read many of your articles and assumeing you are also "Ed" from dendroboard/cuadata.org and you strongly oppose the use of the product then I will go with your opinion.

The oils in the tea tree oil are able to pass through skin readily and have the same effects on the liver as turpentine (and turpentine was at one time used as a medical treatment also and was no longer considered acceptable for the same reasons as it readily caused liver damage).
While the liver can regenerate damaged sections, if there is significant scarring from the damage then the function of the liver can be impaired (sometimes significantly) even though the tissue has recovered.

Yes I am the same Ed as on caudata and dendroboard.

Ed