Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2018-10-28 05:31:36 GMT

Dennis,
I cannot answer you question as I have no means of checking humidity. I have always considered that hydration / dehydration is a issue with the species. So when I was maintaining a number of boas, I had a small pan of water beneath one hide. And I sometimes would mist the moss I had under another one of the hides.

But to insure hydration, periodically I would soak boas for 5 - 10 minutes in a jar with shallow water.

Richard F. Hoyer

Reply by Dennisguy84 — 2018-10-26 23:31:53 GMT

Mr. Hoyer-What would you consider a good humidity level for charina in captivity?
- Dennis

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2018-10-18 04:39:17 GMT

Sorry for not finding your message sooner.

I have no idea why others may house their Rubber Boas individually. When I use to maintain a fair number of the species, I always had specimens of like sizes housed together.

In the wild, it is more common than not to find two or more boas together under cover objects. About two or three years ago, I recall finding 8 male boas under one piece of roofing tin that was bout 16 inches square.

Richard FH

Reply by Dennisguy84 — 2018-10-08 17:58:41 GMT

Mr. Hoyer- I remember speaking to you years ago on here.life happened and I did away with all my reptiles. Now that my kids are a little older,I was able to get back into the hobby. I acquired a few Cb neonates and enjoy working with them again.
It’s 10/8/18 and my boas are starting to shut down on feeding.I did something differently with these boas. I know most frown upon it, but I’m keeping all boas cohabitated together. It has really worked smoothly. All feed in separate feed containers and Iplan on keeping it this way.when they get some size to them I might separate the sexes. What would your take on this be?

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2018-08-07 18:05:21 GMT

Dennisguy84,
Years ago, 'Kingsnake' made changes which lead to the decline in the participation of many forums that use to have regular posts and replies. It has been so long ago that I do not recall why they made those changes. The former Rosy, Sand, and Rubber Boa forum use to be a neat forum.

I doubt if it is now possible to resurrect much interest. But I could post three ‘announcements’ that involve updated information regarding the taxonomy of the Rubber Boa. However, I am uncertain if such information would be of any interested.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

Reply by mrkent — 2018-06-12 04:24:35 GMT

Its been a long time. I bet one of the big reasons people are using it much is how cumbersome it is to upload photos.

These are some old pics of boas I used to have. Very cool snakes.

-----
Kent

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2014-05-27 04:47:44 GMT

Randon:
You haven't provided enough detail in order to assess your situation. All I can say is that Rubber Boa scales turning white is not normal. After injury, replacement skin and scales with be white before total healing has taken place. But as the healing continues, such new skin and scales will become pigmented. In the case of burns and some major injuries, scales will often become pigmented black as well as brown.

How large is your specimen? Was it captive bred from the wild and if the latter, from what state or region?

When did this phenomena begin happening or did the snake have some white scales when received? What percent of the snake's scales have now turned white. If the condition is progressing from few to many scales becoming white, that would suggest some chemical irritant or a pathogen (fungus?) many be the cause. Are the white scales of normal size or are they slightly enlarged or is the tissue beneath the scales somewhat swollen ? Is the boa's skin supple or somewhat dry looking? How do you insure the snake is hydrated?

Give details as to how you are maintaining the specimen. What is the type and size of cage or container in which the snake is housed? What substrate is being used? What temperature(s) and lighting is being used over the 24 hour period?

Richard F. Hoyer

P.S. I can be contacted at charinabottae@earthlink.net

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2014-02-24 05:16:36 GMT

Kent:
Okay but give me a little advanced notice.

Richard FH

Reply by mrkent — 2014-02-24 04:16:19 GMT

Good to know Richard. My male has taken one meal so far. The females have been moving about a little, although I have not increased their heat yet.

Lets try to plan on a weekend in Mid to late March when I can come down and accompany you in the field.
-----
Kent

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2014-02-23 06:15:01 GMT

Mrkent:
In mid January, I found an adult male boa at the KVNE site. Then yesterday, I found 2 adult male boas at the Old House site south of Philomath and two more adult male boas at the KV Barn site along the Kings Valley Hwy. I am not certain you have been to the Old House site but you have been to the KV Barn site with only two tins.

My non-herper, falconer friend and his wife from Eugene dropped by this afternoon. And just for the fun of it, he accompanied me herping this afternoon. We didn't come across any Common Sharp-tailed Snakes at my former Polk Co. study site. So I then took him to the KVNE site where the male boa I found in January was still under the same tin along with another adult male. Then I took my falconer friend to the new site I showed you last year and we came up with 5 adult male boas.

Thought you might be interested to know that adult male boas are now breaking out of brumation locally.

Richard F Hoyer

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2014-02-23 05:57:55 GMT

moreliaviridis.tk@gmail.com

I can't help you with commercial breeders. Oregon does not allow any barter or selling of native species. But individuals can collect any non-game species not listed in some category of concern and that includes the Rubber Boa. So if you were able to travel to Oregon, I could help you find a pair of boas.

I encountered 4 adult male boas yesterday and 7 more adult male boas today with a non-herping friend along for the fun of it. We also observed two adult male Northwestern Garter Snakes at one site and an adult male S. Alligator Lizard at a second site. Here in northwestern Oregon, my field season has begun each February since 1971 when temperatures reach into the 50s (as was the case the past two days) along with a reasonable amount of sunshine. I can be contacted at charinabottae@earthlink.net

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

Reply by mrkent — 2013-10-17 04:19:58 GMT

Thanks Tim. I guess I will be sharing my experiences with them next spring. For now they are in the garage enjoying a nice long sleep. Hmm... that sounds good!
-----
Kent

Reply by tspuckler — 2013-10-15 12:49:48 GMT

I got them in August 2011, so they were a few months old and the breeder already had them feeding on f/t pinks. I have heard that they will sometimes eat small fish or fish-scented pinks.

Also, if you make a nest out of wood chips from an adult mouse cage that have the rodent scent and put the pinks in that, you might get a feeding response.

I've also heard of newborns not eating until after brumation.

So those would be my thoughts, though I've never produced Rubber Boas and had to raise non-feeding neonates.

Tim

Reply by mrkent — 2013-10-14 23:07:23 GMT

Nice looking snakes. Did you get them as newborns? If so, would you mind telling us about how they were to get started? (Such as: live vs prekilled, domestic mice or deer mice, in their first summer/fall or the following spring.) I have a group of this year's neonates that I have put into brumation, in hopes that they will start feeding for me in the spring.
-----
Kent

Reply by tspuckler — 2013-08-26 20:31:45 GMT

Nice, I hope to produce those someday!

Tim

Reply by mrkent — 2013-08-07 23:23:07 GMT

I have two more females that are expecting. The fun part will be in getting them to eat.
-----
Kent

Reply by BobS — 2013-08-07 01:14:02 GMT

Very cool! Congratulations!
-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by markg — 2013-07-30 18:59:10 GMT

Great stuff, thanks for sharing. I wonder if the rubber boa would be the highest elevation snake in many areas.

Reply by markg — 2013-07-30 18:20:51 GMT

I did see some habitat just above 8000 ft that looked quite nice. Like Ryan said, this was on the South and West side of the mountain I was on. Would be fascinating to find a boa up there. Most of the records that I have seen, including unfortunate roadkills from this year, are well below 8000 ft in the area I was in. Then again, how many people are looking at 8000ft.

Thank you Richard and Ryan for answering this question.

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2013-07-30 16:29:08 GMT

Here is the response I received from my son Ryan in Utah:
-------------------------------------------------------------
I don't recall the year, but there was a point that I started to investigate this very aspect. I was setting up a site, and searching for other sites, near 9,000 ft in an attempt to determine if they were that high near the SLC area. I haven't had time/interest to pursue that in the last 8-9 years.

When I used to commute from SLC to Clearfield, I observed high elevation peaks where there is adequate habitate (cover, food), and the south-facing slopes at 8700 did have sufficient periods of time several years in a row that were clear from snow to allow boas to live and reproduce there. And nearby weather stations indicated enough daytime warmth and frost-free nights to indicate that they could be there.

Since then, I have become aware of other finds at elevations above 8,000 nearby, but not specifically within the Salt Lake/Ogden area of the Wasatch. Near Logan, they are common near a lake above 8,000. And there is the one found recently to the east in the Unita Mts at over 9,400 ft.

Especially in south-facing areas at or near 9,000 along the Wasatch Front there are many areas that I have observed that seem like likely spots to hold boas. I think at the highest elevations, food sources become a limiting factor more than temperatures or cover/access to underground. As long as the vegitation and substrate are sufficient for the rodent populations, I highly suspect they are at 9000 ft elevations just east of SLC.

Ryan

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2013-07-30 04:31:37 GMT

Mark:
I have son that lives in Utah so he might have an answer to your question ---I'll ask.

Last week I received a photo a boa individuals came across on the trail around Convict Lake on the East Side of the Sierra Nevada Mts. in Calif., Mono County.

To document that locality sighting, I copied the photo and then Googled Convict Lake to get coordinate and elvation. The elevation at the surface is at 7850 ft., not all that far below 8000 ft.

Richard F. Hoyer

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2013-07-30 04:23:03 GMT

Right on Kent. His heading is rainy day boa and the substrate is wet. I was brain dead last night.

Richard FH

Reply by BobS — 2013-07-30 00:57:22 GMT

Very nice.
-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by mrkent — 2013-07-29 23:58:51 GMT

Richard those look like rain drops to me.

Nice boa Tim.
-----
Kent

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2013-07-29 04:23:09 GMT

TSP:
Your boa (female?) is in good condition. The photo is not all that clear but is seems there are some very small blips across her dorsal side. Do you have a problem with snake mite or what are the small irregularities on the snakes back?

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

Reply by BobS — 2013-06-10 22:16:46 GMT

Nice pic
-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by mrkent — 2013-05-20 04:17:41 GMT

Looks like a nice fat female. It interesting how clean she looks. Most of the wild boas I have seen in Oregon have a lot of scarring.
-----
Kent

Reply by tspuckler — 2013-05-19 01:05:01 GMT

Like anything else, it's a supply and demand thing. I wrote an article for "Reptiles" on Rubber Boas and had an endless string of e-mails from people wanting them (I am raising a CB pair that are not up to breeding size).

I've seen them cheap and I've seen them expensive over the years. Their seeming "seasonal availability" tends to get people crazed and willing to pay more than if the snakes were available year round.

I have not seen either WC or CB Rubber Boas advertised that much over the last two or three years and that presents the idea of scarcity.

I started keeping them after finding my first wild ones in 2011. Luckily there was a local breeder working with them.

Tim

NorCal Boa that I found last year:

Third Eye Herp

Reply by BobS — 2013-05-05 22:52:44 GMT

Pretty cool.
-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2013-05-05 16:37:34 GMT

I have never been involved with the pet industry side of herps so am pretty much ignorant in that regard. I suspect that the price for any species is pretty much governed by supply and demand.

Essentially every species on earth are gems in their own way possessing unique life history aspects that could be fascinating if such were to be revealed. I began my continued involvement with the Rubber Boa in July, 1962 and then in 1965, decided to learn all I could about the species. At the time, I had never encountered the species in the wild and didn't do so until about 1966 or 1967 when I was 32 or 33 years of age.

Richard F. Hoyer

Reply by BobS — 2013-05-03 03:01:21 GMT

Wish Oregon wasn't so far away. Lol

The local shows out this way like Hamburg PA and White Plains usually bring an asking price of $45 to $60. The basic novice folks perusing all the snakes are more into the shiny, colorful and "pretty" snakes. Little Rubber Boas are looked over because there's not much out there less interesting to the majority of folks in that category other than DeKays snakes and brown Anoles.

It's the seasoned hobbyist that generally notices them and understands there is beauty in this cute little worm snake. They are drab by Milksnake and Ball Python standards, not impressive and don't generate tons of interest from the folks who see snake breeding as income because they can't be bred in large numbers.

I think they are awesome little guys but I still think prices of $100.00 or more is excessive. To me it's like charging $80.00 for a ho hum Drab Eastern Garter snake or $60.00 for an Anole. You can ask that kind of price and some folks might pay that much but most sensible folks are going to pass.

They lack curb appeal but folks like me are always going to see them as a gem and I like it that way.
-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2013-04-30 16:39:17 GMT

BobS, others:
The only restrictions on the take of non-protected species of herps in Oregon is that native species, including the Rubber Boa, cannot be sold or bartered. So for years, I have had a standing offer to anyone willing to travel to the Corvallis, Oregon area, I would take them out so they could collect their own boa. And over the years, I have had a few individuals do that very thing.

As for price, many years ago I looked into the commercial sale of the species and the asking prices in the Kingsnake web site's ad section. At that time, prices ranged from about $100 to $150 as I recall. So it would seem that not much has changed price wise. And yes, a number of individuals posted photos of the Rubber Boas they had purchase as having been captive bred but with grossly scarred tail tips indicating they had been wild caught.

The reason the species has been considered to be rare is due to a number of factors not the least of which is the species is mostly fossorial and secretive. Then on top of that aspect, most professional and amateur herpetologist make searches for snake during warm, sunny weather from mid spring through the summer months. That is fine for finding some species of snakes but not very conducive for finding the boa.

I begin my field season for finding the species in February here in northwestern Oregon and continue until it gets overly warm and hot which usually occurs by late spring.

As for abundance, consider the following: For over 40 years, I have traveled a certain road west of Corvallis and have spied a couple of abandoned sheds in a field on the east side of the highway. I have always felt that the site was a prime place for finding the species as the field had remained undisturbed all of this time. On April 19th, when driving by those two sheds, I though I could see a roofing on the ground by the north shed.

I have been able to contact the owner of the property and got permission to see what I could find. On the first visit, in 5 - 10 minutes of turning about 10 roofing tins, I came away with 9 Rubber Boas. After recording data on those specimens at home, when I returned to release those boas, I found two more.

Richard F. Hoyer

Reply by BobS — 2013-04-27 22:00:21 GMT

Yes, I've seen that, where CB babies arrive with scarred tails and skin problems.

-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by rosyluvr — 2013-04-27 04:03:57 GMT

The sad thing and what is wrong, is alot of the so called captive bred rubber boas are wild caught. At least call them what they are.
They are not even close to being rare at all, in fact I have caught more in one night than any other snake that I have looked for.
They were all photographed and released, except for one female that I caught over eight years ago which I have have.

Reply by BobS — 2013-04-22 13:54:47 GMT

I realize folks can ask anything they want for things. I guess I just enjoyed this little corner of the reptile hobby that is not mainstream? Where just some few folks enjoy a neat little snake that is somewhat drab and unattractive and overlooked by the masses. Oh well.... Sorry for the rant.
-----
"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Reply by mrkent — 2013-04-14 21:13:20 GMT

I don't know what your experience level is with rubber boas. I am still a newby (but have bred corns and kings.) I do know that you want to feed the females as much as they will eat, in order for them to be in reproductive condition. I have the warm end of the cage in the low 70s, but I think I will increase the heat to closer to 80 soon, so they can develop their youngsters. Leave the male with the female until late may.

Maybe Mr. Hoyer will chime in with some good info for you. You can also scroll down and read some of the old posts. There is lots of good info there.

Good luck!
-----
Kent

Reply by Boaloco — 2013-04-14 14:08:48 GMT

Thanks for the weights, I have put my male in with my biggest female and he was mating her within in minutes, so fingers crossed! Thanks again for the information

Reply by mrkent — 2013-04-09 01:02:19 GMT

At their last weighing, one week after their last meal, the three females weighed 136, 141, and 193 grams. The males range from 40 to 83 grams.
-----
Kent

Reply by Boaloco — 2013-04-08 17:55:13 GMT

They look great, do you know roughly what your females weigh? I have 1.2 and they are 3-4years old and I am thinking of pairing them up this year but the females are still small!

Thoughts and comments welcome

Thanks

Matthew

Reply by mrkent — 2013-04-07 22:16:49 GMT

By the way, thanks Richard!

Here are a couple more shots.

-----
Kent

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2012-12-25 19:07:35 GMT

Laila:
With respect to your reference to the SRB, that particular designation pertains only to populations of the species in the San Bernardino and San Jacinto Mts. Those two populations have been listed by the CDFG as 'Threatened' and thus are in a hands-off protected status.

Question #1: If the male you received measures 20 inches or greater (stretched length), it is highly unlikely to be a SRB. If its maximum dorsal scale row count is 43 or greater, then it is not a SRB. If the boa's ventral count is in excess of about 210, it is not likely to be a SRB. If the suture between the parietal and frontal head plates is moderately to strongly curved, it is highly unlikely to be a SRB. (Add details below).

Question #2: There is no problem with having specimens of different origins or subspecies being housed together.
Question #3: I believe I answered that inquiry in my response to your private email.

Richard F. Hoyer
=========================================================================

Based on only two specimens, one from each of the San Jacinto and San Bernardino mountain ranges, in 1943, Lawrence Klauber proposed those two populations be assigned the subspecific status of Charina bottae umbratica, Southern Rubber Boa.

In 1971, the CDFG placed the SRB in a protected status officially claiming the subspecies to be "RARE". In the early 1980s, CDFG changed the status from 'RARE' to 'Threatened' to conform with federal terminology.

The primary distinguishing features of the SRB are as follows: They are a dwarf form of the Rubber Boa as shown by a study myself and Dr. Glenn Stewart undertook between 1993 and 1997. Recorded maximum lengths of adult males and females are about 19 1/2 inches and 22 1/4 inches respectively. Males above about 17 1/2 inches and female over 21 inches are uncommon. Most SRBs generally vary from light brown to tan dorsally and the ventrals are also a light shade of yellow. The maximum mid dorsal scale row count on the SRB is 42 however the vast majority of specimens have 41 or fewer dorsal scale rows. The suture between the frontal and parietal head plates tends to be flat or have less curvature than boas from other regions. Ventral counts are also lower than other populations.

There exists problems with the above features that once were defining traits of the SRB. That is, since the late 1990's, I have found that there are a number of other boa populations in S. Calif. that are of the dwarf phenotype. Most of those populations also are tan dorsally with light yellow ventrals. Although the other dwarf populations have somewhat higher mean dorsal scale row counts, higher mean ventral counts, and on the average have somewhat more curvature to the parietal / frontal suture, there exists considerable overlap in those traits between the SRB and these other dwarf boa populations. For instance, last year I determined that 38% of the sample of boas I had examined from Mt. Pinos (west of I-5 and Frazier Park, CA.) would key out to be SRBs using the combination of the above defining SRB features.

RFH

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2012-11-25 05:33:09 GMT

Dr. Booth:
At a symposium in Bellevue, Washington in June, 1991, I gave a presentation entitled "Reproductive Biology of the Rubber Boa,(Charina bottae)". The following year, the proceedings of that symposium were published.

Because I had about 9 months to prepare for the presentation, the draft that ended up being published is crude but the data is extensive and solid.

If you wish a copy of that information, you can provide me with your mailing address.

Richard F. Hoyer charinabottae@earthlink.net

Reply by duckyboa — 2012-10-31 23:12:49 GMT

Contact me at twerpmonkey@gmail.com

Reply by AnnaCB — 2012-08-15 06:36:07 GMT

Yup, I'm just outside of Portland, and we've had a few nasty hot spells (for here, anyway) looks like 97-100ish for the next few days.

My house doesn't even cool down at night- the last time we had a short heat wave, we didn't cool below 87 until 3 or 4 in the morning. Can't wait to move.

Anyway, I ended up completely changing how I deal with the cage- they've got coco husk/soil substrate now, quite deep, and very moist on one side heading to dry on the other.

I still keep 'em on the floor, no lights even for display, and in the coolest room. Not enough, but a start. I've definitely noticed they don't leave the deep wet side of the cage much right now. Still trying different ways to keep them safe.

Reply by mrkent — 2012-08-06 20:06:16 GMT

Since I live in Washington State, I can usually get the snake room cool at night if leave windows open. Then I close it up in the morning, and close the blinds so the sun doesn't heat the room up. We have been having a "heat wave" the last few days, so it has been more challenging. It got up to 102 in the Portland/Vancouver area on Saturday the 4th.

I always provide them with a moist hide, which they use frequently, and also soak them in water occasionally to make sure they stay hydrated.

Since they go for long periods without eating, keeping them cool is very important. Normally this time of year I think they spend most of their time underground to stay cool.
-----
Kent

Reply by AnnaCB — 2012-08-06 19:31:53 GMT

I hadn't realized how hard it is to keep these guys cool until acquiring a few for the long-term. My house normally reaches the low 80's easily during the day in the summer, and I've had to resort to some odd solutions, the only real working one is leaving a loud, power-hogging portable A/C unit running in their room all of the time.

How do you normally manage it? I could use some new ideas.

Reply by mrkent — 2012-08-06 14:34:15 GMT

Since she is a wild caught young adult, I do not know how old she is, or if she has produced young previously. I collected her in 2010. The problem this time of year is providing her with a way to stay cool. She has not resumed feeding yet, so I don't want her to burn up her reserves. I will soak her today to make sure she is well hydrated, then try feeding again tonight.
-----
Kent

Reply by CarlKoch — 2012-08-06 02:49:34 GMT

Wow, I'll bet that was disappointing

Hopefully, next time will go well. I know there are some herp species that tend to have duds the first time they breed...perhaps rubber boas are one of them.
-----
Carl

Reply by CarlKoch — 2012-07-11 00:46:18 GMT

Yeah, mine just kept feeding.
-----
Carl

Reply by batesz — 2012-07-10 23:20:40 GMT

Carl- Thanks for the update and great feeding pics! I'm glad she's still doing great. Did she eat through the winter? My rubber boas shut down feeding in October and didn't eat again until late April, which was a bit unnerving but (of course) not unusual for the species.

Reply by mrkent — 2012-07-08 21:59:37 GMT

That is great that it is eating well for you. My pair of wild-caughts only ate in March and April so far this year. Last year my male ate March through June, and my female ate March through August.

They can sure go a long time without eating, and do fine as long as they can stay cool enough.
-----
Kent

Reply by CarlKoch — 2012-07-06 20:11:35 GMT

Sweet! Prophylactic boas rock! I may name mine "Rough Rider"
-----
Carl

Reply by tspuckler — 2012-07-06 20:02:50 GMT

Nice Carl,

Mine are a little over a year old. My male is growing slower than my female, but they both have changed their colors and are eating pretty regularly (for now).

Tim

Third Eye Herp

Reply by RichardFHoyer — 2012-06-26 05:29:54 GMT

Anna:
As you may or may not know, in Oregon you can collect and maintain as many Rubber Boas (non-protected species), as your heart desires but with the provisions that they cannot be sold or bartered and have to be maintained in a humane manner.

As a serious hobby, I conduct both field and laboratory research on the Rubber Boa. You might consider the option of taking on a wild male and either maintaining it yourself or just use it for mating with your female then releasing it where found. This is something I have done over the years.

If you can travel to Corvallis, you could go out with me and capture your own male boa. A number of individuals have done that very thing over the years. My email address is charinabottae@earthlink.net should you wish to contact me directly.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)