Reply by jeffb — 2020-05-02 02:43:58 GMT

It looks like he's in "blue" getting ready to shed. If his eyes are opaque then he is in blue. If so it's possibly part of his skin starting to come off. Generally kingsnakes shed nose first by rubbing and stretching their jaws to get the shed started.

Reply by rbichler — 2020-10-22 02:01:08 GMT

>>I am late to this thread, and I hope you see this and reply at some point.. how did anyone think to boil a pinky? I understand why the first person to wash a pinky would try that, but boiling?
>>
>>I now have some leonis, so this feeding tip for stubborn hatchlings is vital info for the future. Appreciate it!

I miss worded original post,you actually bring water to a boil, I pore it in a bowl, then throw the frozen pinks in for 5-10 min. after they get started on boiled pinks you can reduce the time in the water so they will gradually convert to frozen Thawed.
Good Luck, Bob Bichler

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R.Bichlers Colubrids

Reply by markg — 2020-10-22 00:13:54 GMT

I am late to this thread, and I hope you see this and reply at some point.. how did anyone think to boil a pinky? I understand why the first person to wash a pinky would try that, but boiling?

I now have some leonis, so this feeding tip for stubborn hatchlings is vital info for the future. Appreciate it!

Reply by rbichler — 2017-05-30 02:23:24 GMT

>>Thanks for the tip! I boiled 5 pinks for 10 minutes and 4 of the 5 Thayeri that were lizard eaters ate them within 10 minutes! This could have saved me hours of tease feeding if I had known about it sooner. IT REALLY WORKS! Thanks again!

Glad it worked for you.

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R.Bichlers Colubrids

Reply by charlescory — 2017-05-30 02:10:39 GMT

Thanks for the tip! I boiled 5 pinks for 10 minutes and 4 of the 5 Thayeri that were lizard eaters ate them within 10 minutes! This could have saved me hours of tease feeding if I had known about it sooner. IT REALLY WORKS! Thanks again!

Reply by rbichler — 2017-05-26 05:10:44 GMT

>>Thanks for the tip. I haven't tried it yet but will. Fortunately I got most to go on live pinks and sold them as such. These last 2 clutches have been as hard as any Alternas I have worked with. I am still re-thinking the whole lizard scenting though for the future as I believe it makes it even harder to get them on pinks in the long run.

Someone told me about this at the beginning of the year, I had 6 graybands that I tried everything to try and get them to feed, not even lizard scenting was working, tried the boiled pinks. 3 out of the 6 fed right away. I tried liz. scent with the boild pinks and that also worked. Within 3 months I had wined all 6 of them off the boiled, Liz. scent pinks and on to reg F/T pinks.
Good Luck, Bob

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R.Bichlers Colubrids

Reply by charlescory — 2017-05-26 03:35:57 GMT

Thanks for the tip. I haven't tried it yet but will. Fortunately I got most to go on live pinks and sold them as such. These last 2 clutches have been as hard as any Alternas I have worked with. I am still re-thinking the whole lizard scenting though for the future as I believe it makes it even harder to get them on pinks in the long run.

Reply by rbichler — 2017-05-26 03:07:26 GMT

>>I've been working for years with various combo's of Bodner & Lopez Thayeri and have some beautiful lines going. Last years 2 clutches however were tougher than usual to get started on F/T pinks. To get a meal in them, I scented pinks or tease fed House Gecko's. My concern is that now, this is all they want to eat and continue to stubbornly refuse F/T pinks. I have 25 left from 2016 and can't sell them until they flip. I have worked with Alterna for decades so I'm no stranger to picky hatchlings. Does anyone one have any tips to wean these babies off of their preferred meal of House Gex? ( I have even tried live pinks and they won't touch them-but offer a F/T lizard and they eat with vigor)

Still dealing with Picky feeders.
Try throwing frozen pinks in boiling water for ten mins. Then rinse, serve warm.
You'll be surprised!
Let me know how it works for you.

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R.Bichlers Colubrids

Reply by charlescory — 2017-01-07 23:37:28 GMT

Thanks TG. Appreciate your feedback. Yes, I use all the tricks: braining, scenting, lizard skins or tails, tease feeding etc. I just brought them up from a 6 week brumation and 4 of the 25 are now on pinks and another 3 have eaten scented. You are probably right that not ALL are going to flip and I may lose a few. I can get them ALL to take a house gex or lizard tail but I can't sell an animal like this as most buyers don't have access or the interest in feeding lizards. As far as being inheritable, you may be right. My question still remains however, I wonder if I have "imprinted" them now on lizards, obviously the preferred meal instead of being patient and just offering pinks when they were 4-6 weeks old?

Reply by tgcorley — 2017-01-06 22:39:26 GMT

Sorry about your frustration -- I have been there. And it always seems like the prettiest thayeri don't want to have anything to do with a pink mouse. It's gross, but have you tried "braining" a pinky? That sometimes works for me. Also, putting a piece of shed lizard skin on a moistened pinky head has worked. In general though, over the years I have developed a hard-nosed philosophy that it's a fact that not all hatchlings are going to make it (i.e., become mouse eaters). Plus, if an animal will eat nothing but lizards, I would worry about using that animal as a breeder in case food preference is a heritable trait (I don't know if it is or isn't, but it's something to think about.) Happy New Year and good luck with getting your animals on mice!

Reply by Jlassiter — 2016-10-28 01:21:59 GMT

>>Finally bred my pair of hypo-e mex mex and got a nice clutch of babies. It'll be a while before I'll know for sure which are hypo-e and which are normal, as the color lightening takes a few months to develop.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Scott

So awesome Scott! Show us some more pics
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Reply by mwentz — 2015-08-17 07:22:41 GMT

Some Thayeri can have a real greeri look to them, so it is likely a thayers. As for the king spending the whole time trying to escape, I am not sure. I keep 4 greeri, and they don't have that sort of activity, unless I have just did a full cleaning. I would offer him a couple other hides, including a moist one. Even just a few paper towel tubes or mac and cheese boxes would work. Sorry you had to wait so long for a reply.

Reply by Patton — 2016-11-14 04:32:10 GMT

Hey Aaron,
I've been out of the loop for quite some time. I had to sell most of my collection due to my wife orders to Germany, but due to a good friend in the Coast Guard who also keeps herps, I was able to hold onto a few of my favorite species. Namely the 2006 pair of Amelco, Mx. Ruthveni that I purchased from you. Here's an old pic of the pair. I'll post some newer ones when I have a chance.
-Phil

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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

Reply by FR — 2014-11-04 15:01:56 GMT

The albinos came from Bill Garska , a friend that I did field work with. He found the hets that produced the albinos, I believe he gifted some to a fellow teacher, then that person produced them. Bill was indeed an odd individual, and did not like albinos, so at first had nothing to do with them.
The first Q king was discovered in a lizard trap, and was called the missing link between milksnakes and montane kings. Bill and Ernie Wagner visited that local and found three more. I then visited that local and found 27 in a day and a half.
With numbers, we did observe wide grey animals, in the field. We also reported very large individuals. The first four were all mid sized. We located the full range from neonates to large adults.( 44inches)

Reply by FR — 2014-11-04 14:51:13 GMT

As one of the founders of Ruthveni, Those are not ruthveni. They are indeed some sort of mix, mex mex as mentioned or greeri.
The description of hybrids given here was most entertaining. But missing the point, we are different races at most. A Celt is not even a race. Its a local type.
Call them what you will, but those animals are not Q-kings. Cheers

Reply by Aaron — 2014-06-25 05:48:07 GMT

I have no idea why there are smiley faces in my post.
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Reply by Aaron — 2014-06-25 05:46:53 GMT

Ruthven's are their own species(Lampropeltis ruthveni) and they have no subspecies so crossing them with anything would technically result in hybrids.

Ruthven's are closely related to the Mexican Kingsnake(Lampropeltis mexicana), which used to be considered 3 separate subspecies; namely the Thayer's Kingsnake(L. m. "thayeri", the Greer's Kingsnake(L. m. "greeri" and the San Luis Potosi Kingsnake(L. m. "mexicana".

Ruthven's are also closely related to the Gray Banded Kingsnake(Lampropeltis alterna).

I have kept and bred all of the above species(and former subspecies) since about 1994. I mean no offense but to suggest that the snakes posted by the OP are Ruthven's because they have a square jaw is an inaccurate assesment based on incomplete information and adds to the confusion.
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Reply by Ameron — 2014-05-10 03:28:55 GMT

Relatively new to the taxonomy dilemma (and sometimes raging side discussions), I have done a fair amount of research in recent months about both Milks, Mexicana complex snakes and the Jalisco Milk vs. Ruthveni dilemma.

I've also researched Google & other Internet images of dozens of specimens. What I've come to find is that the hallmark trait of Ruthveni snakes seem to be the *square jaw*, almost like that of a Russian Rat snake, or certain Cobras. Nuevo Leons, Thayeri, whatever you wish to call them, seem to have a much more *rounded & pointed snout*.

Mutant? Maybe, but I'm not as concerned that Leonis, Thayeri or related snakes are bred to others of different areas, as long as they are the same subspecies. (If you breed a Celtic man from Leeds with a Celtic wife from Darby, their kids are still Celts - if you know what I mean.) I don't vote for mixing different subspecies or species, however. I’ve always been a locale-specific man.

1.0 Boa constrictor imperator (Hog Island)
0.1 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
1.0 Agrionemys horsfieldii kazakhstanica

Reply by Aaron — 2013-12-18 04:50:11 GMT

I actually remember when the albino Ruthveni came out. The original amel ruthveni was born in captivity. I forget who actually produced it but Steve Osbourne partnerned with the originator to offer the first ones to the public for the quite reasonable(IMHO) price of $1,000ea. It's true that they were the first amel tricolor to emerge. Many pure ones were produced as well as many hybrids, some of which are amazingly beautiful. The amel ruthveni gene was most frequently used on Graybands and Thayer's Kings but was also probably used on San Luis Potosi Kings, Greer's King's because those are all montane and/or cold tolerant species, closely related and breed well. I believe it was also used on Pueblan Milksnakes.

I believe the 2nd amel tricolor to enter the hobby was the Nelson's Milksnake at $2,000ea and the 3rd was the amel Honduran/Atlantic Central American Milk at $3,000ea.
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Reply by HappyHeathen — 2013-12-14 23:47:22 GMT

Thanks for checking them out for me.

I kindve got the impression from him that maybe he was recently told they were not pure because he seemed a bit defensive when discussing them. (even though there was no need to be with me lol)

His comment about "I don't care what people say, I've seen ruthveni that look just like these." was what raised the flags for me. I will say that looking over the classifieds I have seen several that look VERY similar to these. This may just be testament to there being hybrids all over. Not to mention these have been pushing out offspring for several years too.

I'm working on a book for another genus of snake and during my research I ran across an account saying that ruthveni was the only known wild caught albino for a long time and people were crossing it with several others for many years in an attempt to spread the albino gene.

Oh well, I have them cooling now along with some thayeri I bought from shores enuff at the show in San Antonio and all my regular breeders.

Thanks for the help.

Reply by Aaron — 2013-12-07 23:11:45 GMT

Those are definately not pure ruthveni, nor are they pure anything. I dont mean that in a bad way, I just mean they are definately a mix of some sort. They look like ruthveni x mexicana to me but its virtually impossible to say for sure. They are nice looking snakes though and as long as you represent them as hybrids/crosses I see no problem with them.

Most likely your friend had no idea they weren't pure because wild ruthveni have not been imported since the early 1980's and there are so many crosses around nowdays that it can be hard to find pure examples to compare to.

Here is one example of a pure ruthveni, just for reference. You can see that the black bands are wider and the white bands straighter than the ones you posted.

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Reply by Varanuskeeper — 2013-12-04 08:50:07 GMT

Sorry to say, they don't look like pure ruthveni to me. Maybe someone with more experience than me can give their opinion. Tyler.

Reply by middlefork — 2014-01-10 20:06:52 GMT

Update:
I took my snake out yesterday and weighed him and he weighed 108gr. the exact same weight he was in Oct. 8th. He was happy and chillin in his moist hide.

Reply by middlefork — 2013-12-09 16:27:52 GMT

Thanks for the reply Aaron. It seems like I am on the right track. I am at good cold temps (44-52F) by regulating the outside air. It is very dry at my place so I did a moist hide. Good to know on the weight, and the other warning signs. I'll keep an eye on those as time goes on. Thanks again.

Reply by Aaron — 2013-12-07 22:51:14 GMT

They can stay down for 3 months, even 4 months depending on conditions(ie as long as you can keep the cage cool enough). Just check periodically to make sure they have good body weight. Make sure the cage is dry and they always have fresh water available; a moist hide is ok too.

Things to watch out for are pacing(too warm), wheezing or bubbles and/or mouthrot. If any of these occur you have to bring them up and treat accordingly.
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Reply by middlefork — 2013-11-29 08:14:00 GMT

Thanks for the reply Aaron. That is what the plan is and I have already started to drop the temp...I'm at 60 currently.

How do I know when he ready to wake-up? It it just a certain date? Seems like he went down early compared to what I have read...thoughts? Thanks.

Reply by Aaron — 2013-11-28 03:22:07 GMT

65F is a bit warm for hibernating a greeri. They are very cold tolerant and you should definitely take it down to 55F. Other than that you're doing everything right.
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Reply by Aaron — 2013-11-05 03:56:12 GMT

I would say 10-12 years old should be fine as long as she looks healthy. It's hard to give a definative answer because it can depend on each females individual breeding history and of course overall health. I would be interested in other peoples input too.
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Reply by tgcorley — 2013-09-06 18:52:20 GMT

The color palette and the patterns are limited, but still they are a nice-looking group of hatchlings - Congrats!

Reply by Aaron — 2013-09-04 13:18:16 GMT

Those are cool.
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Reply by RinL — 2013-09-15 14:17:01 GMT

female was melanistic and her son is a het

Reply by Jlassiter — 2013-09-12 16:28:11 GMT

>>this year i bred my melanistic female to her son. the results were 3.2 melantistic and 0.1 milkshake phase. i apologize for the poor phone pic.
>>

Were both the female and her son melanistics?
Or was the femal melanistic and the son a "het?

I beat the odds a bit if you did breed melanistic x het.....

Nice!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Reply by Aaron — 2013-09-04 13:19:59 GMT

Nice. Seems like melanistics are making a comeback.
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Reply by middlefork — 2013-08-03 14:50:28 GMT

Cool, thanks.

Reply by HeavenHell — 2013-08-03 02:10:29 GMT

Probably around three feet.