Reply by Coach — 2011-02-02 16:15:39 GMT

Don't believe everything you hear in the media. The venomoid part of this story may be just an excuse to cover for the possession of illegal animals. The bigger picture is these kind of events are going to throw more unwanted attention on people keeping hots.

Reply by Viktor — 2010-12-17 01:25:46 GMT

Seeing as gaboons, and all other vipers for that matter, are illegal in Washington state as of a few years ago (check out the herp law section on this website), I don't think many people will be willing to provide you with the species you seek. You have a few real options here though A) move to Oregon, B) acquire a gabby from someone in state who had it before the ban and has record of this, or C) acquire one illegally. Obviously I cannot recommend circumventing laws, however misguided they may be, so I personally would go with option A. Please think these options through before you acquire a snake, and remember, the state of Washington considers a venomoid snake to be exactly the same as a hot one.

Reply by mikebrown18 — 2010-08-18 03:26:51 GMT

i doubt there is anyone in the state doing such a thing. If i were to get one anywhere i would get them from venomoid inc. I think they are the most trustworthy place to get them from. they know what they are doing and make sure you are getting a quality cb and feeding animal.

Reply by shadowguy — 2010-11-09 05:40:48 GMT

Feeding multiple snakes in a cage or when they have remnants of prey scent in the cage or worse yet on their "person" is a recipe for disaster regardless of species... I know of a Dumeril's boa that killed it's cage mate in such a circumstance. So far as the Mamba goes it is anecdotal evidence at best, since necrosis may have been present and systemically poisoning the patient with bacterial by-products rather than the venomous animal's venom. Whether or not mamba's are immune to mamba venom has not been proved or disproved by this case. One could argue that since mamba's are not thought to be prey items to each other immunity would not be neccesitated. Again anecdotally I had the misfortune some years ago of having a juvinile Western Diamondback rattlesnake bite it's sibling on the head during the night... no food present.... and the bite recipient died the next day. Whether this was due to invenomation or mechanical injury to the snake could/can not be determined.

Reply by basinboa — 2010-04-13 22:39:36 GMT

Really, makes no sense.

That snake probably died from bacteria infection brought by the teeth rather that venom. OR, mambas are not immune to their own venom.

Reply by yasin1 — 2010-03-25 20:42:46 GMT

One type of immunity is also caused by prolonged exposure to an antigen. Like if you keep injecting yourself with small doses of venom in increasing amounts, you will eventually become immune to that specific venom, a lot of people do this. On the other hand, if you stop injecting yourself, you will surely lose your immunity in time. This is an example of antigen dependent immunity.

Very interesting observation Al, blew my mind!
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Reply by SoLA — 2010-03-13 00:06:45 GMT

I hit this forum on accident and decided to read this. I agree it does not make sense.

I would send a message to Zoltan Takacs, as he would be the leading authority on who snakes are immune to their venoms. Having listened to his lectures and spent a little time with Zoltan, my understanding is the snakes do not have a "resistance" which would be variable dependant on external factors (including presence of their own venom glands), but rather it is a true immunity like the above poster mentioned with things like the sugar molecule prohibiting binding, as they already stated.

Reply by metalpest — 2009-07-15 04:40:24 GMT

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. I do believe that the immunities are caused by certain genes creating proteins or other organic structures which out compete the venom for its binding site (ie, sugar structures near the acetylcholine binding site on muscle receptors which inhibit the binding of venom). A lack of venom should not change this at all.

Has it been show that mambas are immune to their own venom? While I know some snakes are, I don't think they all are, and maybe not all have been studied either. It would be very interesting to me to hear a mechanism on how lack of venom leads to lack of immunity at the molecular level, very interesting if this turns out to be the case.
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Nick Puder
www.rnpreptiles.com

Reply by jderyke — 2010-02-11 06:47:29 GMT

I don't own a venemoid, but my favorite Nor-Cal herp-doctor told me of a case he'd had. A customer brought in an adult cobra-venemoid that seemed to have caught cold: the distressed snake was sneezing and gaping. Close examination showed a clear goo drooling out its mouth, which proved to be SILICONE! Yes, the surgeon(?) that did the gland-removal used a sort of breast-implant to maintain the animal's head shape after surgery. And the sac had ruptured.... emergency surgery saved the cobra's life, but the snake turned out to be VERY expensive.
So what kind of implants are generally used here? This type obviously didn't work out very well.

Reply by Bthacker — 2008-08-28 16:52:01 GMT

Another reason not to put your animal through this.......

Reply by cissp — 2008-08-22 14:24:10 GMT

Who was the vet that removed the original implant? VENOMOIDINC.COM has been in business for a number of years. I would suggest asking their DMV about your issue.

Reply by yasin1 — 2008-07-03 06:42:10 GMT

I have kept 'moids before I switched to hots. I have kept/been keeping both vipers and elapids. No "visible" change but a detailed fecal test would be the best way to go to end the debate.
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Reply by gauger79 — 2008-06-14 00:14:45 GMT

ive kept hot and venomoid
gaboons
rhinos
monocle cobras
forest cobras
indian cobras
and it was all the same, even about the same time digesting their meals i seen no diference at all and this was with 10 or more of each species hot and venomoid

Reply by dsreptiel — 2008-05-27 16:59:38 GMT

This is the Venomoid forum the thread below in question was transferred here from the general venomous forum . David

Reply by vmax — 2010-11-15 15:20:20 GMT

No need to be an ass and vent your frustrations on someone trying to gather info. If you cannot answer in a civil or informative manner why answer at all?

Reply by PoeMan — 2010-08-15 17:12:05 GMT

County
I have been working with hots for about 20 yrs, properly. Before that I, like a lot of kids growing up in Kentucky, messed with em.

Now..Am a Police Command Officer and the Founder / Director of the S/E Michigan Reptile Rescue. We deal exclusively with Large / Aggressive / Venomous Reptiles. I do numerous seminars on captive care / husbandry of reptiles, and do direct training seminars for Animal Control Officers. Been on Animal Planet a few times as well.

I get flamed on these forums many times. I run into so many people, who think they know everything, that want to show you how superior they are to you.

If they can't burn you on the actual topic or meat there of they will hit you on spelling, grammar, or proper use of the forums. It really has the feel of an "Ol Boys Club" sometimes on the net.

So please be patient and explore as many sites as possible. Some, like me, are very busy with herping and work and don't have much time for being online.

Now as to your question...Have handle a few Venomoids. So let me go over a few points.

#1: Treat like they are still hot
Glands may be gone, but, how much do you know about the person who performed the removal

#2: Venom may be gone, but, the bacteria in the mouth can really do you some harm. A Mangrove snake is considered a harmless rear fanged snake. Yet there are people, who have had an alergic reaction to their venom, that have died. Same could hold true for the bateria in a Venomoid.

#3: As with any reptile seek medical attention if bitten.

#4: Even the best handlers in the world get bitten.
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2 A. Miss at 8'
5 A. Miss at 3'-5'
1 C. Nil at 9'
1 C. Croc at 6.5'
and
6 A. Miss/C. Croc 2'-3'

Reply by MsPony — 2010-02-24 16:27:54 GMT

Im sorry but I have to disagree Mike, just because you are not internet savvy doesn't mean you aren't smart. Shes 20, so yes we expect her to be really internet savvy, but if you didn't grow up with computers, then you just don't know. I help my boss and managers with our internet and computer stuff, im FAR younger then they are and not even as knowledgeable on some things as they are (I work for a vet tech.) That doesn't make me less then average or even them. She could be really herp smart and just not know computer stuff.

And really, spelling? Some people just don't care about spelling on forums, or are incredibly horrible spellers. I am married to the former, but he could probably trump everyone here on cars and machine knowledge.

OP, I hope your herp stuff clears and goes well =)
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I grew up with jeff Corwins tv show, my fondest childhood memories are not playing with other children, but sticking easter eggs down holes trying to catch a cobra!

"A rattlesnake that doesn't bite teaches you nothing."
- Jessamyn West

Reply by jr56 — 2009-02-22 18:29:34 GMT

I would guess treat the bite for infection, since if the job was done right, there shouldn't be any venom.
Jeff Robbe
Four Lakes Snakes

Reply by gauger79 — 2008-06-14 22:13:23 GMT

about the venomoid snake still delivering venom in a bite,a couple of things first, i know a few "surgeons" that i trust, with elapids they do a full adonectomy which is removing the whole glands and ducts,with this there is no chance of the snake ever being able to produce venom again.. now with vipers some "surgeons" only do a ductectomy which is only removing a piece of the duct and cauderising(sure i spelled that wrong oh no) the two ends, leaving the glands in, they do this with vipers because removing the glands can cause the shrunken in head look. the duct CAN regenerate and usually its like one side and just a little bit, but just a little bit of some snakes venom is enough to kill you. now though most places take out the glands and ducts on vipers and elapids both and use surgical implants to keep the head looking right. sooo if you are buying a venomoid snake just ask if it has the glands and ducts removed or just the ducts. i would stay away from the ones with only the ducts removed and find one with with glands and ducts removed. because once a gland is removed it cannot grow back.

go to venomoids inc. they have the best

Reply by gauger79 — 2008-06-14 21:48:13 GMT

not a problem, to many people have nothing better to do with their time than jump on someone for a misspelled word, get a life right.. i have alot of expierence with venomoids and hots,if you need any ?'s answered ill do my best. oh yeah i did get bit by a venomoid viper, a copper head he got me through the bag with one fang and it hurt a bit and was a little sore if you touched right where the fang went in for a day or two but never any infection from any venomoid snake bite and i got bit by alot of venomoid cobras and like i said in other post they were no problem even when ther held on and chewed it wasent all that bad. any ?'s feel free
thanks...

Reply by county — 2008-06-14 02:40:34 GMT

Thank you for such a polite and 'to the point' answer. As im sure you can tell, i did not receive that from any of the previous respondents. I truly appreciate your professional attitude toward my question---Thank you---County

Reply by gauger79 — 2008-06-14 00:21:31 GMT

none there harmless ive been bit by a few venomoid cobras and it is worse to get bit by a boa or python ,the cobras only left 2 little holes (unless they chewed)compared to 30 depending on how good a boa gets you on the other hand vipers have big fangs never got bit by a venomoid viper im sure it wouldn't feel to good . not as bad as the hot eyelash i got bit by though lol..

Reply by county — 2007-11-15 20:46:55 GMT

you know i feel awful...almost as if i started a turf war of sorts...i simply wanted an unbiased opinion...i knew there was a category specifically for venemoids, but i wanted an opinion from people who were not supporters of the procedure...i have since contacted the people at venomoids and posed the question to them...they informed me that even if the procedure was performed correctly there is still a huge chance for infection and you should head to the hospital immeadiately for antibiotics and observation...again thanks for your responces--Judith

Reply by LarryF — 2007-11-12 07:13:19 GMT

>>Also had the person read the description of the Venomous forum it clearly tells people the following:
>>
>>"Please note: all venomoid discussions need to be posted in the Venomoid Snake Discussion sub-forum. "

True. However, I would say it is unrealistic to expect more than a small percentage of new people coming to the board to read everything at the top of each forum they go to, especially when part of the page is taken up by ads. I don't mean this as a criticism, I'm just saying it's not going to happen.

I can only think of 3 ways you could possibly have a significant impact on steering venomoid questions from new users to the right place.

1) Make the venomoid subforum a full forum and put it right BEFORE the venomous forum on the main board.
2) Pop up a message whenever someone tries to post on the venomous forum, reminding them that venomoid questions go somewhere else.
3) Search the text of new posts for the word "venomoid" and redirect.

#1 would probably start it's own flame war.
#2 would annoy everyone.
#3 would probably be a pain...and would not have worked in this case anyway (spelling).
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Reply by TJP — 2007-09-15 17:12:35 GMT

"If I wanted your opinion I would have asked for it...."

By posting your questions, you basically opened yourself up
for people to give opinions, it's only natural. It's a heated debate here, that's why they have the venomoid forum, so it doesn't have to be rehashed over and over again. More than likely, this thread will get moved to the sub-forum, so you may want to post questions over there. You're likely to get a better reception there than in a forum where most hotkeepers are against the practice. Just some friendly advice.

Reply by JoeEdmark — 2007-09-15 15:20:04 GMT

Take this to the Venomoid sub- forum.

Reply by JL1981 — 2007-08-20 17:13:22 GMT

Venom is nothing more than modified saliva. While some colubrids have venoms that are just as toxic drop for drop as elapids, they not only lack the delivery system but most produce very tiny quantities of it. As for cribos, I believe Dr. Fry had said that the indigos/bird snakes had reduced, very small venom glands and have resorted to being "bully feeders" using their size and power to overcome prey. Apparently the only colubrids that lack venom are the North American clade including kingsnakes, ratsnakes, pituophis, etc. Have a look at this site and forum at www.venomdoc.com. Extremely informative.

Reply by Upscale — 2007-08-17 05:35:06 GMT

Ha ha, I just realized. God made venomoids, and called them “colubrids”.

Reply by Ryan Shackleton — 2007-08-17 05:29:40 GMT

Thanks for the info-still trying to find a link to the old discussion I mentioned(have found posts from roughly the same time, 4-5 years ago I think) but just not that specific subject.
I'm with you on the looks of the cribos though-saw quite a large one at a show at Reptile Gardens last summer. Venomous or not, very interesting snake.

Reply by Upscale — 2007-08-17 05:21:41 GMT

Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry is doing some research on the evolution of snakes by studying their toxins.
He has been able to find cobratoxin and associated glands in snakes like ptyas, and to quote-“ We've subsequently found these toxins in pretty much every 'colubrid' species we've looked at,”. These snakes lack the evolutionary step to venom delivery typically associated with venomous snakes, but have the gland and venom. We all have heard that “modified salivary gland” description used for venom glands. Turns out a few colubrids have them too. Through his study of snake evolution by examining the venom in these snakes, we will probably see that some are more closely related to elapids. (I always thought those cribos looked a lot like some hots!) Almost all snakes are descended from snakes with venom glands, (perhaps sea snakes?) the effective delivery mechanisms in some are a notable advancement. Not sure if this is on the track of your post, but basically, a lot of snakes probably have toxic saliva and very poor delivery mechanisms. A venomoid that is a duct or partial gland removal, or where the gland may be regenerating (impossible with complete removal, of course) is just like any of these other snakes that posses the toxin, but ineffective delivery mechanism. A complete gland removal probably makes a venomoid less toxic than a lot of colubrids!

Reply by sgraff — 2007-08-15 23:56:13 GMT

Listen up. never mind my question. this is not fun. I thought this would be a interesting forum. everyone seems a little angry I'll find my answers elsewere.

Reply by sgraff — 2007-08-16 00:17:23 GMT

thanks, sorry i didnt know everyone was so angry about venomoids. i appreciate all of your anwsers.

Reply by azatrox — 2007-08-15 20:45:50 GMT

Yes, this question does belong in the "venomoid subforum", but I'll answer it anyway...

Surgical procedures do nothing to affect a snake's legal standing as far as the State is concerned...If the snake was venomous at any point in it's life, then a permit is required...no exceptions.

I suppose the rationale here is that if you bred two venomoid snakes together, the young would be "fully loaded"...and seen from that perspective, it makes total sense.

Ok...no more venomoid related answers from me...

-AzAtrox

Reply by TJP — 2007-08-15 20:06:50 GMT

Yes, you need a permit. You should refer to the venomOID forum for these types of questions. However, they will more than likely give you a different answer.

Reply by TexasReptiles — 2007-08-15 19:58:07 GMT

Please take this to the Venomoid Sub-Forum.

Thanks!

Reply by eunectes4 — 2007-08-16 15:31:06 GMT

lol, I liked that.

Are we also planning on getting a venomoid snake and letting it go back into the wild where it has limitless space? Or could we let it go in a preserve that is boxed off by highways on all sides? Lots of preserves just feel like a bigger and less controlled enclosure.

But lots of people find it more immoral to keep a snake in 5 X 3 box than they do to remove the venom glands and keep it in a 5 X 3 box....

Reply by TJP — 2007-08-02 07:12:19 GMT

You mean the procedure that's done to prevent certain cancers in dogs or cats? Or the procedure that's done to control the amount of stray animals? Yeah, no difference. Good point.

Reply by fatjosh — 2007-08-01 17:49:32 GMT

So you must not believe in spaying or nurturing cats and dogs, no different.

Reply by JoeEdmark — 2007-07-31 21:32:12 GMT

Maybe a better question to ask is what medical applications are applied to a dry bite from a Gaboon.

Reply by JoeEdmark — 2007-07-31 21:30:36 GMT

Good point.

Reply by LarryF — 2007-07-31 20:28:22 GMT

Yes, but we wouldn't go to PETA's web site to ask them for advice on building cages and expect them to be polite...
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Reply by JoeEdmark — 2007-07-31 14:44:07 GMT

Some consider keeping an animal in a 5x3 rectangle when it should be in an infinite amount of terrain more depriving than removing venom by surgical means.

Reply by Atrox788 — 2007-07-31 11:46:13 GMT

Oh that happens all he time! I get bit at least weekly by my venomoids. I got a pretty bad feeding response from one the other day. Damn food hungry midget!

Yea, it happens quite often and I don’t pay any attention to it. Its just part of the game.

Oh, you meant venomoid as in a surgically altered, mutilated and otherwise deprived venomous snake? Oh, I thought you were talking natural venomoids like my Pituophis!!

Sorry, ignore my response.

Jeremy

Reply by SnakesAndStuff — 2007-07-31 05:51:54 GMT

There is a sub forum for this type of question.

Reply by murdoch — 2010-05-28 23:21:58 GMT

I am a family doctor in Pa
I think timbers are endangered or protected etc and trade is restricted

Canebrakes can look a lot like timbers as the southern morph
Let me know if you find a legal source of timber venomoid for educational display as I do educational Programs myself from time to time
Winslow

Reply by eunectes4 — 2007-03-02 01:37:03 GMT

technically, all colubrids with the exception of na kings, rats, bulls, milks (former na elaphe, lampropeltis, and pituophis) are technically venomous and rear fanged. Meaning, they all have a venom gland. Really, this gland is no different than the venom gland in any other elapid, viperid, or crotalid besides size. And with each rear fanged snake, the size of the gland will vary.

So I really see no reason why this gland could not be removed as it is in any other venomous snake.

And I guess you could technically have a venomoid garter snake.

If you would care to read my feelings on the topic, I spelled it out rather clearly in the thread below this one.

Reply by enkidu — 2007-02-28 06:32:43 GMT

Notice that I did not say that I had any intention of doing it, which I do not. And also several sirtalis species such as the wandering garter snakes are rear fanged.

Reply by archiebottoms — 2007-02-28 03:53:24 GMT

get a garter.

Reply by Sighthunter — 2007-03-11 03:19:14 GMT

I looked up and a magnificent thing passed by and I wondered if and when the universe imploded if I mattered.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Reply by Sighthunter — 2007-03-10 06:06:36 GMT

I BASICALY WANT TO TAKE SIDES WITH WHOEVER IS LOOZING IN THE ARGUMENTITIVE SENSE. I WAS UP LATE AND BOARD. DON'T HAVE ANY VIPERS BUT MABY WE COULD ALTER MY BEADED LIZARDS. WOULD BE KINDA NICE TO JUST LOOSE MASSIVE HUNKS OF FLESH WITHOUT THE PAIN RUSH. NOW IS THE TIME SOMEONE NEEDS TO JUMP IN AND BASH ME I'M INTO IT. HECK I'M NEW ON THIS FORUM GOOD PERSON FOR A DOGPILE, HUH. JUST WANTED TO INTRODUCE MYSELF PROPER. HECK, WHAT GOOD IS A FORUM IF YOU CAN'T VENT. THIS THREAD MIGHT SAVE ME A VISIT OR TWO AT THE SHRINK.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Reply by JoeEdmark — 2007-02-20 02:05:35 GMT

I definately agree with handling venomoid snakes as though they are indeed fully venomous. I believe that the person needs to have a strong background in raising many snakes to take on potentially venomous ones.

Reply by TJP — 2007-02-19 20:38:33 GMT

They should be discussed in the VENOMOID forum. Not here. That's the reason why the sub-forum was created. If you don't want to see any flaming posts, this isn't the place to bring up the topic. I do, however, appreciate the level headed responses that were given. Hopefully the mods will move this to the appropriate forum before it gets out of hand. Everyone knows how I feel about them, and the topic was played out on the venomous forum years ago.

Reply by eunectes4 — 2007-02-19 19:41:15 GMT

Here is my thought. I hope I can still come into work tomorrow : )

My main stance is...what's the point in altering the animal with invasive surgery? It "might" lower the chances of envenomation if bitten, but dead is dead. So being bitten is a bit close. Maybe when a zoo can figure out how to make an elephant not weigh so much and not be dangerous...I might start re-thinking a little more about this. And I am absolutely certain I will be forced to think about it more in the future. I wasn't all for having my dogs sex organs removed to prevent cancer in those organs...but the dog sits with me now...minus the weight of a uterus and ovaries.

I guess you could call me leaning on the philosophical side a little.

Here was a response I had for some kids who asked me about it.

I have to say there is no "safe" snake in these cases. The surgery does not exist. Even surgeries as medically advanced and controlled as heart surgeries have complications. And this happens with the best doctors and technology we have on the planet. Not everything can be completely controlled when we are dealing with complex matters of biology.

So from here we have to look at the surgery we are talking about with venomoids. There is very little in the way of scientific information that has been studied on this. This leaves a lot of room for things we do not expect and mistakes to happen...Especially when compared to what we know and the work that has been done by heart surgeons.

So we have to understand that whenever working with these animals we are dealing with a threat to our life. You cannot cut any fewer corners and you cannot do anything different or you will end up being someone who was shot by a gun that wasn't loaded.

Maybe there is a very good chance the surgery went well and you will be alright. But it doesn't matter because dead is still dead.

With the complications of surgery I already mentioned, we really do not know of how able one is to not have venom. Again, this is not something that has been studied well enough. It would certainly benefit scientists to know exactly what roles venom plays in the life of a snake. But nobody has been willing to go through the amount of work it would take to find out. It is not worth it. A surgery would have to be developed which is accepted by a majority of scientists which is found as a "reasonable" means of determining the snake is not producing venom any more. And remember, this is still not 100%. It would only be the best thing most scientists can find. We have already covered that this has not happened yet and I do not think it ever will.

It will not because there is not enough motive there, because even once a surgery was developed...it would take removing the venom glands of hundreds (at least) of snakes and examining the results over the entire life of each snake in order to see a decent result. And there would still be margins of error you cannot control for. This even goes beyond your margin of error each surgery already has. This would be just to get a good idea of what the effects were on ONE species. It would take years. And it could be studied forever and you would still find out new things and you might even find out most of the past work was completely wrong.

This is how science is. Think of all the medical advances we have made in the last 100 years and think of what new things we are still finding out.

We take risks in medical science to try and save lives.

A venomoid surgery is a risk to both the snake and the human involved. So this brings us back to why we cannot take the risk error. We already know error exists with the surgery; we cannot then take any more risks than we would have taken if we "knew" the snake was still venomous.

Because once again...dead is dead and all risks and errors are over from that point on.

Reply by Carmichael — 2007-02-19 18:42:23 GMT

there have been many heated debates about this topic and, unfortunately, most of the arguments come from folks who get a tad irrational on the subject. You are right, if done correctly, under veterinary anethesia and veterinary procedures, the amount of pain the snakes experience is probably fairly minimal (and yet, how do we really gauge the level of pain these animals undergo?....is it based on feeding response, appearance, behavior?...). Many are long lived and it appears that not having working ducts and/or glands does not pose any problems in terms of digestion of prey or overall health but once again, do we really know? The real argument is one based on philosophical differences. Many will say "if you have to remove the ducts/glands, then you shouldn't own a venomous snake". I can live with that, however, those same people are the very same people who keep venomous snakes w/out the proper antivenin (or access to it), improper safety procedures and less than adequate caging. Now, those folks are a bit hypocritical about the argument that they are trying to defend. Other problems include: having a pair of venomoids and breeding them together thus producing fully hot offspring, assuming that a venomoid is 100% safe....regeneration has been known to t ake place although if done correctly, is minimized, keepers becoming complacent because they know that even though its a "venomous" species of snake, it is no longer "venomous" and their handling skills basically suck. There are countless of other arguments. I think that venomoids should be treated no different than venomous herps; in fact, folks not adept at keeping venomous have no business keeping venomoids. No minor should own a venomous species; venomoid or hot. We do, on occasion, take in "voids" from confiscations and such. Many of these have been very long lived snakes but the folks keeping them were barely qualified to keep a corn snake. Once again, the primary argument boils down to a philosophical debate and this is a tough subject to debate with a sense of calm and respect for each other's side. So which side am I taking? Currently, all of the snakes in our collection (Wildlife Discovery Center) are fully armed and loaded with the exception of a couple of venomoids that came to us via confiscations or abandoned pets. I do know of some top knotch exhibits who feature all venomoids but you would never know it by looking at the animals (human grade implants, excellent body weight, normal behavioral pattersn, etc.) and, ironically, some of the worst exhibits I have seen were fully hot specimens kept by facilities whose staff did not feel comfortable working with them on a regular basis (dirty cages, less than healthy looking animals, stuck eye caps, etc.). So, the argument will continue to go on and on and my position is stated somewhere in the "gray areas"

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>The following is my sole opinion on keeping venomoid reptiles. This is meant to be a civilised discussion, so please, be able to state you opinion without being hostel.
>>
>> I am not against the operation itself. I belive that if it is done right, it is not wrong. It only actually hurts the snake a few weeks after the operation, and that is without painkillers. It is still completely able to live a normal life in captivity. Peoples' main arguement is that the operation is done to suit human "ego" to keep a venomous reptile. But then one could say, if you want a "natural" or "real" snake, you never ould have obtained it in the first place.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Joe
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Reply by rantcaseyisgod — 2009-02-01 23:47:49 GMT

>>I don't know of any "reputable"venomoid sellers but there are usually quite a few venomoids listed in the classifieds(or at least were a few months ago when I was looking for other things). I will say, however, that more of the other posters will take your post more seriously if you typed your words instead of abbreviating them with numbers. A lot of posters(not so much here due to opinions) come from a scientific background and expect complete sentences and words if not proper grammar and spelling. That said, before getting a venomoid, please ask yourself why. If it's so you can safely handle the snake ask(without asking opinions)courteously on the venomous forum how dangerous a venomoid can be-one poster(I forget his name but when he talks people listen) knows of cases of near death from dry and/or venomoid bites. Puncture wounds are difficult to clean. Now add that to the depth of, say, a large Gaboon viper fang and the small size of the hole. It makes a wound nearly impossible to clean, and a wonderful place for some nasty infections to begin-these infections are what caused the near death I mentioned. My opinion has almost nothing to do with true cruelty, other than if you want a cobra and can care for it properly then get a cobra, but don't try to turn it into a corn snake with a big head. Nonvenomous snakes come in a lot of shapes and colors, and most venomous snakes have some nonvenomous snake that looks something like them-other than size a rough green snake looks a lot like a green mamba. Why not get a natural look alike instead of making one?

//It's agreeable that a venomoid does not make for a safe snake, and buying a venomoid for the fact that one may free-handle it "safely" is a fairly poor reasoning. They will still bite.

However, keeping a venomoid because you are not able to retreive antivenom/antivenin or because you don't want to run the risk of being injected sounds reasonable as well. If one assumes the responsibility of taking proper care and going through all precautions to maintain their safety and the animals safety, yet however they are still worried of being injected, then a venomoid doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Let me re-state: Keeping a venomoid within the mindset that you want to treat a gaboon viper like a ball python is a poor way of thinking.
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Adam

"I wish I were wise! I wish I were wise from the heart of me, like my serpent!"

Reply by Ryan Shackleton — 2007-01-30 04:11:51 GMT

I don't know of any "reputable"venomoid sellers but there are usually quite a few venomoids listed in the classifieds(or at least were a few months ago when I was looking for other things). I will say, however, that more of the other posters will take your post more seriously if you typed your words instead of abbreviating them with numbers. A lot of posters(not so much here due to opinions) come from a scientific background and expect complete sentences and words if not proper grammar and spelling. That said, before getting a venomoid, please ask yourself why. If it's so you can safely handle the snake ask(without asking opinions)courteously on the venomous forum how dangerous a venomoid can be-one poster(I forget his name but when he talks people listen) knows of cases of near death from dry and/or venomoid bites. Puncture wounds are difficult to clean. Now add that to the depth of, say, a large Gaboon viper fang and the small size of the hole. It makes a wound nearly impossible to clean, and a wonderful place for some nasty infections to begin-these infections are what caused the near death I mentioned. My opinion has almost nothing to do with true cruelty, other than if you want a cobra and can care for it properly then get a cobra, but don't try to turn it into a corn snake with a big head. Nonvenomous snakes come in a lot of shapes and colors, and most venomous snakes have some nonvenomous snake that looks something like them-other than size a rough green snake looks a lot like a green mamba. Why not get a natural look alike instead of making one?

Reply by lateralis — 2006-11-03 18:36:57 GMT

Yeah, dont feel snuffed, its just a well worn subject around here and consequently does not pop too often.
I personally think its a disservice to the animal and a "short cut" by folks who have no respect for these creatures, or a desire to learn/practice proper techniques when working with them.
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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

Reply by SnakesAndStuff — 2006-11-03 04:18:54 GMT

Search the archives and look in the venomoid forum. This has been gone over too many times here and we all know how everyone feels about it. (not trying to be rude, we just get asked this a LOT)