Original post by Z_G_Reptiles — 2010-08-03 12:39:05 GMT
If anyone is like me, they do best with visual images to help explain, locate, and identify the different scales so I thought I’d post explanations and images showing and explaining the differences between the 3 species.
P. Brongersmai - No Subocular Scales, Labial Scale goes all the way to the eye, Parietal Scales meet with large area at center line on top of head
P. Breitensteini - With small Subocular Scales between the Labial Scale and the eye (however I have been told this doesn't always hold true, but to me majority rules), Parietal Scles meet with large area at center of line on top of head, much like P. Brongersmai
P. Curtis - With small Subocular Scales between the Labial Scale and the eye, Parietal Scales meet at a point, or little contact, at the center line on top of head
Here's a few pictures I did to show
This is a pic of my P. Brongersmai showing the Labial scale going up to the eye.
With Tim Mead’s permission here is a pic he took and I labeled the subocular scales and the Labial scale showing how the Labial scale does not go up to the eye but is connected to the subocular scales, which P. Brongersmai does not have.
And this third pic, Kelly Haller showed me this drawing that shows the difference between the parietal scales on the P. Breitensteini and P. Curtis.
P. Breitensteini on the Left and P. Curtis on the right
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Zack Greens Reptiles
Reply by DNA_Curtus — 2011-09-22 15:42:16 GMT
My mistake! I re-read where you put p. brong will ALWAYS lack...
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Reply by Kelly_Haller — 2011-09-22 05:48:16 GMT
You are correct. Some breitensteini in the wild have been recorded lacking subocular scales, but it is rare. That's why I stated that P. brongersmai is the only "curtus" group python species that always lacks suboculars.
Kelly
Reply by DNA_Curtus — 2011-09-21 23:30:40 GMT
VPI's line of super stripe borneos will from time to time lack sub ocs. Who knows what pops up once you actually get beyond 3,4 or even 5 generations of in/line breeding though.... not many have. All the ones that have though seem to end up with animals without them and will have siblings with them. Inbreeding may preserve certain traits but can cause a drastic loss of other things.
http://vpi.com/galleries/images/144
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Reply by Kelly_Haller — 2011-09-21 22:53:30 GMT
John,
Don’t focus on the preoculars because all three species have them. Your last statement is the correct one in that only P. brongersmai always lacks suboculars.
Kelly
Reply by JohnRobinson — 2011-09-20 07:47:24 GMT
OK, now I'm confused. It looks to me like breits have a complete ocular ring, including preocs. Are you saying there is a lack of preocs in breitensteini? Zach says that brongersmai have no subocs but from the picture they look like they do have preocs. I'm trying to get this straight. I was memorizing "breits and curtis have subocs, brongers do not." Now I' rattled!
Reply by Snakemanmoss — 2011-02-03 13:52:22 GMT
I agree with Tim. I have made a post in the past referencing your knowledge on Pharmaceutics, and this is no different. Thank you for bringing such good knowledge to this forum with no trash talking, or disrespectful staements. I hope some day I will be as well versed as you are. Thanks again, cheers!-Rob
Reply by googo151 — 2010-10-12 18:09:42 GMT
Nice job!
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Have you hugged your Blood today?
Reply by luckydog — 2010-09-22 23:23:10 GMT
Thank you Kelly, and yes they are but it was inevitable..So we'll have to deal with it and educate those who need it..
The lack of preocs in Brietenstieni is not near as rare in captivity as it is in wild populations..LOL,ya know what I mean gene..LOL, Thanks again..
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www.serpentim.com
Reply by Kelly_Haller — 2010-09-21 05:20:27 GMT
When several morphological characteristics fail to come together to clearly identify a certain snake as a specific species or subspecies, definitely start thinking intergrade specimen. While there are always a few abnormal specimens in any given population that won't conform to the standard morphology of a given species, these are usually pretty rare and can usually be weeded out by looking at a series of characters. This is because it usually isn't numerous discrepancies in these types of cases. Intergrade specimens will usually show several characters of each of the parent species, but this is not the case every single time, and that is one of the big problems with identifying hybridized offspring. As Tim said, intergrade specimens can cause some pretty big identification problems, especially if two very similar species are hybridized. And Tim, good luck finding any brain cells up there. Thanks,
Kelly
Reply by luckydog — 2010-09-16 21:50:37 GMT
Kelly, I look forward to your reply, always ENJOY reading your posts..I'd bet this one will be no different..Hybrids are hitting hard in the clan and has ruffled some feathers amongst the groupies of..I'll say it was inevitable as you know..But it sure is a bug in the shorts..BTW,SURE WOULD like to see your brain cells where this all goes on...
Thank you Kelly,
Tim..
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www.serpentim.com
