return to main index

  mobile - desktop
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter follow us on YouTube link to us on LinkedIn
Click here for LLL Reptile & Supply  
click here for Rodent Pro
This Space Available
3 months for $50.00
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Herp Photo of the Day: False Coral Snake . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day: Bearded Dragon . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - Apr 02, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Calusa Herp Society Meeting - Apr 04, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Southwestern Herp Society Meeting - Apr 06, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Hamburg Reptile Show - Apr. 13, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  St. Louis Herpetological Society - Apr 14, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  San Diego Herp Society Meeting - Apr 16, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Suncoast Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 21, 2024 . . . . . . . . . . 
RodentPro.com - feeders for less!
full banner - advertise here .50¢/1000 views
Polar Rodents - US based provider of frozen rats and mice.
pool banner - $50 year

RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration?

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Horned Lizards ] [ Reply To This Message ]
[ Register to Post ]

Posted by: rkhorne at Wed Nov 1 10:56:29 2006  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by rkhorne ]  
   

Fireside, I can’t speak for anyone here, but my explanations to some of the valid questions you raised are as follows:

What is the advantage of trying to use "primary" food sources other than which it was adapted?....

First off, I reserve the right to debate the “adapted” portion of the question in a separate post….but as for the question of why feed them something other then ants….

1. The requirement for the Ant Diet has not been scientifically proven.
a. I’m a degreed scientist. I conduct scientific tests on a daily basis for a living and have been doing so for 20 years now. Over the years I’ve learned not to substitute assumptions, opinions, group think, or even field observations in place of scientifically proven facts. So far I have not found any scientific based data that says Ants are a mandatory dietary requirement for the long term captive care success of HL’s. I’d simply like to see it either proven or disproven through the scientific method.
2. Elimination of parasites associated with wild caught ants.
a. Every time we feed HL’s WC ants we run a much higher risk of introducing parasites then when we feed them captive raised insects. (Yup, this too needs to be proven, I hope to do this during the experiment, but for now I think it’s a pretty a fair assumption).
3. Continuous access to a readily available food source.
a. For most of us, easy and continuous access to Harvester Ants is not nearly as easy as access to crickets, meal worms, roaches (?!), etc.
b. I’d like to say there’s a cost benefit using crickets, but after 2 years of buying at least a 1000 pinheads/wk at $15 a pop, it appears the cost factor is a push. (Don’t bother doing the math, I know I’m well over $3k doing my preliminary case study so far. And now I’m about to start it all over again?!)
4. Better control of the gut loading benefits of the food source.
a. Harvester Ants appear to have a much more restricted diet then crickets, roaches, etc. Generally speaking, you can much more easily “boost” the vitamin intake of your lizard buy gut loading an crickets then you can an ant.
5. Harvester Ants may become extinct.
a. When considering the known destruction of Harvester Ant populations due to human development, along with the associated Argentine Ant and Fire Ant invasions, coupled with the human population growth projections over the next 50 years, I’m concerned that Harvester Ants may not be available in the future to support any viable Wild or Captive HL populations. If this becomes a reality, then there’s a genuine need to establish an alternative diet to insure their survival. I could go deeper into this subject, and I’ll be glad to debate this premise outside of this post, but for now, I just ask you to consider the possibility of the occurrence, and if it was to happen, what steps should we be taking now to insure their survival.

What is the hypothesis and why does it need to be solved? All I can say is refer to comment #5 above. I’ve first hand witnessed significant destruction of HL habitat in my short life span. Given the projected human population explosion which will undoubtedly occurred in their remaining natural habitats, I’m convinced that in order to save the various US species from ultimate extinction something needs to be done with respect to their captive care/captive propagation science. The Phryosoma.org & Phrynosoma.com web sites represent very, very good first steps down this path. What’s needed now is to start filling those web sites with the scientifically based information required to move the ball forward. The proper way to do that is to first select a care/propagation parameter to be tested, and then perform compare and contrast type scientifically based experiments to determine the optimum solution for the parameter under test. My post is recommending we address the dietary requirement parameter. I conducted my own personal experiment just to see if crickets were a viable alternative and concluded that they are. The obvious next step is to do the full-up compare contrast experiment not only to try and validate my findings, but more importantly, to try and determine the best approach.

Is the experiement to really answer the question: "what is better for them"? Or is it something else? That's my question…My answer…both. I personally want to know the best captive care solution. I know ants work very well, but are they the best…I haven’t see any scientific based data to prove or disprove that premise. Being a real scientist, I want to see the data before I draw any conclusions. Is it something else? Yup….as stated above, I have an additional motive for pursuing the subject, I want to do my part to save the species. I’m concerned about the time frame, the clock is ticking, I’m not seeing the academic world pushing the envelope in this area, so I believe it’s up to us hobbyist to get the job done before we loose them altogether.

BTW… Diet testing is just one parameter to investigate. Similar experiments are needed to determine the optimum requirement for seasonal cycles, light, temp, substrate, hydration techniques, etc.


   

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Subscribe to this Thread ] [ Show Entire Thread ]


>> Next Message:  RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration? - reptoman, Wed Nov 1 15:32:27 2006
>> Next Message:  RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration? - fireside3, Mon Nov 6 16:18:34 2006

<< Previous Message:  RE: Diet Experiment Collaboration? - fireside3, Sun Oct 29 05:04:07 2006