return to main index

  mobile - desktop
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter follow us on YouTube link to us on LinkedIn
 
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Kingsnake Merch Store . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake returns to Tinley . . . . . . . . . .  kingsnake.com joins Monitor Brains! . . . . . . . . . .  Sneak Peek . . . . . . . . . .  Amphibian gut bacteria showing promise in cancer research . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Meet The Baroness - The world's longest snake . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  Updates? . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day . . . . . . . . . .  The mechanics behind the viper strike . . . . . . . . . .  Snakes on a Train? . . . . . . . . . .  Tracking the animals in the Florida Everglades - Meet the Croc Docs . . . . . . . . . .  Reintroduction attempts give San Francisco Garter a second chance . . . . . . . . . .  Promoting Reptiles is Our Jam Man . . . . . . . . . .  Origins of Chytrid discovered . . . . . . . . . .  Wisdom Wednesday - The Forums - The water is warm... Come on in! . . . . . . . . . .  Kingsnake.com Past, Present and Future . . . . . . . . . .  IHS Celebrates 50 years . . . . . . . . . .  End of January 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Fun Fact Friday - Green Tree Monitor . . . . . . . . . .  The Evolution of the Osteoderm discovered . . . . . . . . . .  PACNWRS Expo Jan 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Diamondback discovered in new Texas county for first time . . . . . . . . . .  Expo Setup . . . . . . . . . .  Reptiles greater than Golden Globes . . . . . . . . . .  Meander Monday . . . . . . . . . .  Update: Release mobile friendly!! . . . . . . . . . .  Reptile Super Show Pomona California . . . . . . . . . .  PACNWRS - Apr. 18-19, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - Apr 18, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 19, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Bay Area Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 24, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - April 25, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Big Sky Reptile Expo - April 25-26, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - May 06, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  CRE - May 16-17, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - May 16, 2026 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - May 17, 2026 . . . . . . . . . . 
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
full banner - advertise here .50¢/1000 views
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
pool banner - $50 year

RE: Polyphyletic

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Taxonomy Discussion ] [ Reply To This Message ]
[ Register to Post ]

Posted by: CKing at Mon Sep 29 13:18:35 2008  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by CKing ]  
   

>>The group containing frogs and birds has one common ancestor and all of the descendents except for three groups of species (i.e., urodeles, gymnophiona, and amniota). Isn't that paraphyletic in the same way reptiles are paraphyletic? Reptiles have one common ancestor and a few groups of descendant species removed (e.g., synapsida and aves).>>



Tetrapods include more than the groups you cite. There are basal amphibians that are included among tetrapods besides the urodeles, and the caecilians. You are incorrect that your group (birds plus frogs) excludes the amniota because birds are included in amniota. If you were to exclude all amniotes from your taxon, that leaves frogs only, which is of course a monophyletic group. Frogs do not even form a paraphyletic group. It is a holophyletic group.



Reptilia is a monophyletic group (paraphyletic according to the fastidious cladists) because it shares a nearest common ancestor. Since all life on earth share a single common ancestor, any 2 or more species on earth can therefore form a monophyletic group. Hence there would be no such thing as a polyphyletic group using such a broad definition of monophyletic.



Biologists have agreed that a monophyletic group should be defined as a group in which all members must share a nearest common ancestor. Reptilia is a paraphyletic group (according to the fastidious cladists) because it is a stem group within Amniota. The lineages of all of the members of Reptilia can be traced directly to the ancestral stem species of Amniota. Reptiles is paraphyletic (instead of holophyletic) because two crown groups of amniotes have been removed: namely the birds and the mammals. Since the birds have been removed from Amniota, the many lineages of the Aves cannot be traced directly to the common ancestor of the amniotes. The nearest common ancestor of Aves is now the first archosaurian reptile with feathers (Longisquama being the oldest known reptile with feathers would be a good candidate as bird ancestor, not withstanding many cladists' denial that Longisquama has feathers because they dogmatically believe that birds are descended from a dinosaur and Longisquama is not a dinosaur). The nearest common ancestor of the mammals is a therapsid reptile that evolved fur from whiskers. Lumping two crown groups like birds and mammals would create a polyphyletic group because these two groups have different nearest common ancestors. Lumping frogs and birds into the same taxon is similar to lumping mammals and birds because they too have different nearest common ancestors.


   

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Subscribe to this Thread ] [ Show Entire Thread ]


>> Next Message:  RE: Polyphyletic - apeltes, Mon Sep 29 22:42:34 2008

<< Previous Message:  RE: Polyphyletic - apeltes, Mon Sep 29 12:41:12 2008

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You Click here for Dragon Serpents Click here for Dragon Serpents
KINGSNAKE.COM

Enjoy all our content free of charge with a user account that gives you full access to every feature. For added visibility, paid options are available - post in our Classifieds, showcase your business with Banner Ads or a Directory listing, promote reptile events, and more.

Quick Links
Community
Legal & Safety
Support

Register for free ✓ Sign up!

Kingsnake.com ® is a registered trademark © 1997-