Just a brief clarification to your long and well thought out post. First, clearly what I said pertains mostly to the masses of hobbyists who are not about to dedicate years to establishing assurance colonies. But I do not think that 'only scientists' should be involved. In my field and captive work (Asian tortoises), I work with folks from across the spectrum, including many serious hobbyists. But it is in my view indisputably true that there are many species for which the pet trade is the real villain, and it's a cop out to say that we shouldn't shut if down because a black market will thrive anyway.

When I mentioned Madagascar, I was talking about radiata, which are plain abundant in the right, protected habitat accordinng to recent censuses, population may approach 1 million animals. Pyxis may be a whole other story.

I worked in wildlife research and conservation for 20 years also, and I've seen common species go nearly exinct not for food, but as pets (Burmese stars for example). Herp hobbyists tend to have a libertarian, anti-gov't streak which often renders them unable to embrace conservation measures.

For the priciest hobbyist tortoises, I can accept the smugggling of a few very high priced CITES I species, because the overall effect of export/import bans is better protection of the whole species, even when enforcement is weak and third world governments are corrupt. I've worked a lot with such gov'ts, and the results are real.

Craig Stanford
Univ Southern California

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• Where are all the pancakes coming from? - Will A., Mon Mar 6 18:52:28 2006
• RE: Where are all the pancakes coming from? - drtom, Mon Mar 6 19:54:30 2006
• RE: Where are all the pancakes coming from? - ScottE, Tue Mar 7 07:16:35 2006
• IMPORTS IMPORTS IMPORTS........ - Matt J, Tue Mar 7 19:25:20 2006
• Don't be TOO bitter... - will a., Wed Mar 8 09:24:39 2006
• RE: Don't be TOO bitter... - simias, Wed Mar 8 11:41:39 2006
• RE: Don't be TOO bitter... - Will A., Wed Mar 8 15:03:16 2006
• RE: Don't be TOO bitter... - simias, Wed Mar 8 23:52:36 2006
• RE: Don't be TOO bitter... - Will A., Thu Mar 9 08:15:24 2006
• RE: Don't be TOO bitter... - simias, Thu Mar 9 13:54:22 2006
• RE: Where are all the pancakes coming from? - THAsia, Fri Mar 10 16:16:04 2006
• RE: Where are all the pancakes coming from? - ee, Sat Mar 11 14:38:17 2006