I'm guessing Matt is looking at the long term rather than the emotional or short term aspect.

I can't say for sure the pancakes or the goldens or the hermans or the redfoots... that are supposed to be farmed are not.

The point is that they are leagally available at this time. It is up to governing agencies to determine that they are not and take the respective action. If a persons passions run so high as to prove the contrary then they should help the authorities to prove the suspected action and remedy it. I've actually seen this done in the case of the Libyan greeks where a tortoise enthusiest alerted the athorities that they don't exist in Libyia...

The point is that they are available now and should be taken in and added to current stock for the future because they will be shut down as were those tortoises before and the opportunity to have a good founding stock will be lost.

This happened with Egyptian tortoises. I had the opportunity to acquire them (legally at the time) for $35 each. I contacted every zoo I have contact with to acquire them at that price and all refused for what ever reason. They went app I and now there is a huge interest in those little guys. They will probably never be allowed to be collected and there is the very real possibility that their home range habitat or interest in the animal will be put on the locals back page of interest (for whatever reason). Those animals went to hobbiest and are now part of the base that are producing babies available in the pet trade. I see this as a missed opportunity for the zoos. Most of those zoos did not make the same mistake when it came to the Pyxis. When they were available they snatched them up and now there is a good founding stock in the US. I chalk this up to a change in political point of view (but that's another discussion).

Some biologists... scientists... hobbiests realize that the root cause is that the earth is shrinking and there is not much we can do about it outside of education. There's one major hurdle there because passion can be a double edged sword. You can have angry passion or you can have reasonable passion. I think that as soon as the angry passion can be reasoned with... problem solved. You can apply this to any field or point of view. Simple, isn't it.

What we need to do is take what we have now in hand and work with it. Not perpetuating the market is a great theory but by the time you figure out if it will work or not the habitat is gone and the animals are gone. While capitalism might turn some peoples stomachs that is what makes the world function as far as people go.

For anyone else reading this... if you would like to work with whatever animal and work towards a common goal such as developing a founding stock for a captive population, keep good records, keep all sales receipts and try to obtain a paper trail for the animals you purchase. Try and obtain a copy of USFW 3-177 form for the founding stock or any imports (not an easy task but not impossible). This will open many doors for you and help keep it above board.


>>No, as profitable as the black market may be for illegal animals, I'm simply not in that genre of business. I'd be the wrong guy to talk to. In fact, the only tortoises I own are burmese stars, which are MUCH more rare and valuable/expensive than pancakes, and those aren't wild-caught either.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

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