Doug Wrote

Okay some pretty good thoughts came out of the last thread and I'd like to build on this a bit more. The one thing that caught my imagination most was the idea that in good times a population's territory may expand very slowly and that such times are primarily manifest by an increase in population density. Conversely, during bad times populations tend to disperse more quickly. The concept that bad times may more effectively spread a populations influence than good times is a bit counter intuitive but it has a beauty all its own.

The problem again is, your basing all your thoughts of THEORY. Then you build on theory with more theory. The problem is, reality may not agree, and in this case it most likely will not agree.

The problem is, suitable habitat. There must be suitable habitat to expand into.

Also, in good times there is strong recruitment. Strong recruitment means the habitat will be staurated. After that occurs, then it individuals get forced out, these become transient animals. Transient individuals are a part of the population at all times, good years or bad. On good years, there may be more. So a better chance of expansion.

Bad years are measured by poor or zero recruitment, then of course, there is NO expansion. In fact, contraction is most likely the case.

Anyway here is my question, any ideas or observations of what happens to a "fat" population once things start to go south? I can infer drops in reproductive rates and recruitment into the adult population are the first things that happen to bring the population back into equilibrium but at what point does inter-population competition become intense enough that actual dispersion begins and could incidence of cannibalism be a measure of this?
Cannibalism most likely occurs when members of different populations contact eachother. There is no need for any other conditions.

Here on the east coast I find few habitats that are in anything near pristine condition.

Let me ask you a question, what is pristine???? and why do you call it that? The reality is for kings, their populations are much higher in mans leftovers, old fields, old dwellings, etc.
Perhaps the reason I'm so certain that our kings are completely cannibalistic is because kings here are almost always in a stressed dispersal mode. Again, from your description, your observing TRANSIENTS. FIND THE BREEDERS, then you can talk about what BREEDERS DO.

The main problem I see with your observations are, you have not determined what kind of animals your collecting or observing, WHICH IS COMMON.

My observations are BASED on the productive part of the population, the residents. Its here where we find groups and consistant pairing and repeated obervations. These areas, are what I show when i post pics of breeding, pairs, groups, etc. These populations are what we need to study, not transients.

An analogy is, Street people are indeed a part of the american culture, but I would not base a study on the reproductive habits of the american or human culture on them. Transients are indeed part of reptile populations. But not the "successful" part.

About collecting, Street people are easy to find and observe, they live on the street. Residents are a bit harder, as they have homes(holes and burrows).

In order for you to make a decent observation, you must first find the productive part of the population. IF you do not find pairs or pairing, nests, eggs, clutches of neonates, piles of sheds(homes). Then your not finding any evidence that you are looking at something important. Something as simple as repeated behavior is very important to find.

Simply put, finding a snake under AC is not all that informative.

The real point, if all your finding is snakes, you cannot make up the rest of what they do. You must find evidence and repeated evidence of the important aspects of their lifes.

WE KNOW, they hatch, they grow, they must mate, they become gravid, they must lay their eggs, their eggs must hatch. All those are different catagrories. Then you must fill in each catagory has much much more to it.

What can you put into each catagory?

As an example, on our study site for montane rattlesnakes, we have no problem finding 10 gravid females a day. On the gila site, 10 to 15 gravid females a day is not a big problem. On the diamondback site, well, more.

Yes, those species are easy as they spend more time above ground. Kingsnakes, hmmmmmm I have found as many as six gravid pyros a day. Getula, the number drops around here, but not with speckled kings. hahahahahahahahaha tons

So sir, you must first KEEP looking until you find and then repeatedly find important parts of their life cycle. Then study that.

May I ask another question, do you find most of your kings in AC, how about finding them naturally??????? Are kings designed for AC? In order to truly understand a species, you must study it in the habitat its evolved to. You know, its natural habitat.

As a small example, in your area, how many snakes will breed and become gravid and lay eggs. Then compare that to how many you will see. My bet is, you never see natural copulations. or maybe a few in your life. What what gives you the idea your looking in the right area? They MUST copulate in nature.

Of course you could view this with watersnakes, thats easy, but what about kings? Are kings not pairing and breeding???? you do not see it, so it must not happen. But you find babies, so it must happen. Get it.

Then once you find what part of the population is doing this, and spend time observing them, THEN AND ONLY THEN can you make any comments on what they actually do.

If your in Fla, you can see anoles courting and copulating, heck, all the time, OK, not all the time but all spring into much of the summer.

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK KINGSNAKES ARE NOT DOING THE SAME? If you look where there is only one anole, you will not see them do it either.

Once you find pairs, you will notice, they spend months, up to six together, if not longer. Pyros, can and do stay in pairs year around.

C.lepidus and C.willardi, stay in pairs and small groups, year around, but C.atrox, do not. They only stay together for a month or two. Yet, the same males breed the same females, year after year. Lyresnakes, stay in groups YEAR around, etc etc.

So what do the kings in your area do? I do not know, but I do know what many of the reptiles in my area do. I can assume, yours would be similar but maybe not exactly the same. I have learned that because even the same species in neigboring mountain ranges, behavior is slightly different modes, but do stay within certain parameters.

Please do not take offense, but in order for you to actually learn, you have to read the right book. So get out and find these parts of reptile behavior, then figure out a way to study it. That last part is not all that easy.

about studying kingsnakes, being is they spend most of their life and most of these behaviors underground, you can study other species, then use each catagory. Call them power points, if you can then find these power points with the kings, that are the same or different then a known snake behavior, then you can get a better idea without having to have thousands of observations. Cheers

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