I see, now we're at the inevitable part of the discussion where you start moving the goal posts and start trying to divert the discussion from its original course. The discussion was about lace monitor nesting: Where do they nest in the wild and the best ways to simulate this in captivity.

Here's the link to the original conversation: more on nestboxes, from below

You, as per usual, wanted to turn it into a pissing contest. What you specifically asked for was results and the results you wanted were numbers.

Some quotes:

FR:" For instance I asked how many clutches per year and how many eggs. This is yearly reproductive effort. Reproductive effort is how you gauge success."
(link: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1965756,1966173)
FR:"So what has your female(one or more females) reproductive effort/s been like. Number of clutches per year, number of eggs etc."
(link: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1965756,1966122)

Against my better judgement I stooped to your level, joined your pissing contest and gave you those numbers: Reproductive effort. Clutches and babies. Unfortunately for you, my lone female's reproductive effort surpassed all of yours and you lost at your very own pissing contest, so now you want to move the goalposts by comparing something else. i.e. you're grasping at straws.

You want numbers? Let's do some math. According to you, you've produced over 100 babies. Now let's look at some of your statements:

FR:"As I mentioned, we had at least three females produce five clutches a year. These clutches were normally five eggs. So a total of 25 eggs per year."

3 females x 5 clutches x 5 eggs per clutch = 75 babies

Let's say you had another 4 females produce 1 clutch each with an average clutch size of 7 eggs. But you wouldn't be happy with one clutch each, as that suggests failure. So we'll make it 1 female producing 4 clutches with an average clutch size of 7 eggs per clutch.

1 female x 4 clutches x 7 eggs per clutch = 28 babies.

Add the 75 from earlier

75 plus 28= 103

We're already over 100. That's all of them. All of the babies you claim (a claim which everyone doubts) you've ever produced. Even if we throw in another female or two and a few more clutches, can you see what's wrong with this picture? All of these females produced multiple clutches in a single year each and then never produced another again, because they were dead.

No female has lasted more than a single reproductive year, according to your very own numbers.

Remember that this conversation is all about nesting. You have been telling people for years that it's easy to get eggs out of monitors and I agree with you there. You've also been saying that it's difficult to get good nesting and the result is bad eggs and/or females dying of reproductive failure. I agree with you there, too. Which is why I find it so surprising that you want to discuss reproductive output when every single one of your female lace monitors has died of reproductive failure.

Going into the minute details of eggs per clutch, eggs per year, age of first laying etc when every single one of your female monitors has failed is like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. Does it not even embarrass you in the slightest that you're trying to compare the reproductive output of several female monitors over (according to you) several generations with a single female monitor kept in a one bedroom apartment? You've got way more space, way more facilities - everything you could possibly need to succeed with the species if you applied it properly, but because of a stubborn refusal to believe that lace monitors commonly nest in termite mounds in the wild you refuse to give them the one thing they need.

FR:" We can then discuss possible comparisons to their natural history. "
You forget, you live in Arizona and I live in Australia. How can we possibly have a meaningful conversation about lace monitor natural history? The problem with coming here for a few weeks at a time on a visit compared to living here 24/7/365 is that you don't get a sense of the seasonal differences or changes in the weather from year to year. Consequently you start imagining that eggs can survive a 9-10 month incubation in sawdust or leaf litter. If you lived here, you'd know why lace monitors nest in termite mounds in the areas your lace monitors and my lace monitors come from and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

FR:" Crocdoc lives exactly where lacies occur. Which means his overall conditions are exactly what those animals were designed for."

Yes, because we know that no one has ever bred a reptile outside its home country, like Burmese pythons, bearded dragons, carpet pythons, boa constrictors...

Remember DWS (that paragon of monitor husbandry), FR? He once presented the same argument when he was grasping at straws, too. If my monitors were housed outdoors, that'd be a valid argument. However, you and I both know they are housed indoors, under controlled conditions. I've already told you that I can time their reproduction using thermostats and light timers. My female produces two to three times the number of clutches of eggs the local wild ones do, because her conditions are different. What's more, she starts earlier (if I want her to) and has often laid her first two clutches before the wild ones even start nesting. The only difference between housing them indoors here and housing them indoors anywhere else in the world is the Australian air coming in through my windows, but if you're naive enough to believe that makes a difference I'll happily help you part with your money by selling you bottled air. If you're really nice to me, I'll include crushed gum leaves for smell and maybe a sound recording of a kookaburra for the complete picture.

But I warn you, you'll probably want to build a nest box.

Here's the thing: If you had started off by saying something you'd hinted at in some of your posts (amid the rest of the 'stuff'), namely that your conditions are different because it's hot in summer and your monitors are outdoors, so nest boxes are difficult, we could have had a meaningful conversation. Or, you could have read my post on nest boxes and lace monitors, thought to yourself "well, that's all fine but I couldn't do that here because it's too hot", and not joined the conversation. However, you decided to justify not using nest boxes by attacking the idea that they nest in termite mounds in the wild and then by carrying on about 'results'.

I'm going to be away from the computer for a few days, so you can take your time thinking of your next diversionary tactic.

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